Comments on: See-all Walkthrough, With Commentary: “Rag Princess Sews” Chapter (Part 3): The Salon and Eleanor http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/2009/06/15/plot-structure-story/see-all-walkthrough-with-commentary-rag-princess-sews-chapter-part-3-the-salon-and-eleanor/ A spoiler-intensive RoR plot-theory blog Wed, 10 Mar 2010 12:49:29 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: RuleofEleanor http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/2009/06/15/plot-structure-story/see-all-walkthrough-with-commentary-rag-princess-sews-chapter-part-3-the-salon-and-eleanor/#comment-17486 RuleofEleanor Tue, 23 Jun 2009 03:04:10 +0000 http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/?p=356#comment-17486 I really wish I hadn’t posted that last sentence about Hoffman making Wendy give up Peter because he was let out of his cage. I hadn’t even intended to write it, but at the last second I added it in as a possible explanation just for the hell of it. But because of this when I read your post, even though the whole point of your post was to point out how that couldn’t possibly be the reason because of the dates on the letters, I didn’t see it that way. Because the statement was a throw away comment in the first place and I never really believed it anyway, I instead focused entirely on the mistake I’d made about the timeline of events somehow never even realizing that you were pointing out the dates on the letters in the first place solely to invalidate my claim about why Wendy mite have had to give up Peter. Then in you next post when you said that there was nothing ruling out my idea that getting back at Jennifer mite very well have been Wendy’s reason for suddenly taking care of Peter I immediately jumped all over that still totally missing the real point of your first post. After going back and re-reading your first post its painful obvious what your point was, can’t see how I kept missing it. It would appear that this is my week for missing the obvious. I really wish I hadn’t posted that last sentence about Hoffman making Wendy give up Peter because he was let out of his cage. I hadn’t even intended to write it, but at the last second I added it in as a possible explanation just for the hell of it. But because of this when I read your post, even though the whole point of your post was to point out how that couldn’t possibly be the reason because of the dates on the letters, I didn’t see it that way. Because the statement was a throw away comment in the first place and I never really believed it anyway, I instead focused entirely on the mistake I’d made about the timeline of events somehow never even realizing that you were pointing out the dates on the letters in the first place solely to invalidate my claim about why Wendy mite have had to give up Peter. Then in you next post when you said that there was nothing ruling out my idea that getting back at Jennifer mite very well have been Wendy’s reason for suddenly taking care of Peter I immediately jumped all over that still totally missing the real point of your first post. After going back and re-reading your first post its painful obvious what your point was, can’t see how I kept missing it. It would appear that this is my week for missing the obvious.

]]> By: PokerNemesis http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/2009/06/15/plot-structure-story/see-all-walkthrough-with-commentary-rag-princess-sews-chapter-part-3-the-salon-and-eleanor/#comment-17480 PokerNemesis Tue, 23 Jun 2009 01:27:22 +0000 http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/?p=356#comment-17480 RuleofEleanor wrote: <blockquote>what you really meant was that Peter was around long before Brown so Wendy couldn’t have gotten him as payback because he was already there.</blockquote> No. My point was to reject your hypothesis: "It could have been Peter being let out of his cage that changed Hoffman's mind." The incident wherein Peter was let out of his cage occurred long <strong>before</strong> Wendy even decided to take care of Peter, therefore Wendy having to give up Peter later would not have any connection with the much earlier incident in which Peter was let out of his cage. In other words, if Hoffman ever allowed Wendy to take care of Peter, it would have already been after the incident in which Peter was let out of his cage. It doesn't make sense that he would change his mind due to an event that he had already known about long before he gave permission. RuleofEleanor wrote:

what you really meant was that Peter was around long before Brown so Wendy couldn’t have gotten him as payback because he was already there.

No. My point was to reject your hypothesis: “It could have been Peter being let out of his cage that changed Hoffman’s mind.”

The incident wherein Peter was let out of his cage occurred long before Wendy even decided to take care of Peter, therefore Wendy having to give up Peter later would not have any connection with the much earlier incident in which Peter was let out of his cage. In other words, if Hoffman ever allowed Wendy to take care of Peter, it would have already been after the incident in which Peter was let out of his cage. It doesn’t make sense that he would change his mind due to an event that he had already known about long before he gave permission.

]]> By: RuleofEleanor http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/2009/06/15/plot-structure-story/see-all-walkthrough-with-commentary-rag-princess-sews-chapter-part-3-the-salon-and-eleanor/#comment-17477 RuleofEleanor Tue, 23 Jun 2009 00:52:01 +0000 http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/?p=356#comment-17477 I stand corrected…again. I totally misunderstood what you meant. After reading your previous post it really sounded like you were against the idea of Wendy getting Peter as a response to Brown and nothing more, when what you really meant was that Peter was around long before Brown so Wendy couldn’t have gotten him as payback because he was already there. I’d never paid much attention to the dates so I’d always thought Peter arrived at the orphanage after Brown, but the dates prove otherwise. So I ended up possibly being right but for the wrong reasons. You know, I read your post more then once but I never saw my mistake in till you pointed it out to me…talk about being blind. I stand corrected…again. I totally misunderstood what you meant. After reading your previous post it really sounded like you were against the idea of Wendy getting Peter as a response to Brown and nothing more, when what you really meant was that Peter was around long before Brown so Wendy couldn’t have gotten him as payback because he was already there. I’d never paid much attention to the dates so I’d always thought Peter arrived at the orphanage after Brown, but the dates prove otherwise. So I ended up possibly being right but for the wrong reasons. You know, I read your post more then once but I never saw my mistake in till you pointed it out to me…talk about being blind.

]]> By: PokerNemesis http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/2009/06/15/plot-structure-story/see-all-walkthrough-with-commentary-rag-princess-sews-chapter-part-3-the-salon-and-eleanor/#comment-17429 PokerNemesis Mon, 22 Jun 2009 02:26:53 +0000 http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/?p=356#comment-17429 RuleofEleanor wrote: <blockquote>Damn, I hadn’t noticed the time line problems with my idea about why Wendy started taking care of Peter. I’d always believed she got the rabbit after finding out about Brown as some kind of counter move to Jennifer having gotten the puppy, like a jilted lover getting even with her ex by showing up with a new lover on her arm. It just seemed so like Wendy to do something of the sort that I never even considered another option … however if the dates on her letters are correct then that cant be the reason…to bad.</blockquote> I think you are still misunderstanding the time-line. Jennifer says: <blockquote>Peter the rabbit… He was the pet that Wendy suddenly decided to take care of. It was the same time I started looking after Brown…</blockquote> ...so there is nothing to rule out that Wendy started taking care of the rabbit as a response to learning about Brown. RuleofEleanor wrote:

Damn, I hadn’t noticed the time line problems with my idea about why Wendy started taking care of Peter. I’d always believed she got the rabbit after finding out about Brown as some kind of counter move to Jennifer having gotten the puppy, like a jilted lover getting even with her ex by showing up with a new lover on her arm. It just seemed so like Wendy to do something of the sort that I never even considered another option … however if the dates on her letters are correct then that cant be the reason…to bad.

I think you are still misunderstanding the time-line.
Jennifer says:

Peter the rabbit… He was the pet that Wendy suddenly decided to take care of. It was the same time I started looking after Brown…

…so there is nothing to rule out that Wendy started taking care of the rabbit as a response to learning about Brown.

]]> By: RuleofEleanor http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/2009/06/15/plot-structure-story/see-all-walkthrough-with-commentary-rag-princess-sews-chapter-part-3-the-salon-and-eleanor/#comment-17428 RuleofEleanor Mon, 22 Jun 2009 01:39:17 +0000 http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/?p=356#comment-17428 Damn, I hadn’t noticed the time line problems with my idea about why Wendy started taking care of Peter. I’d always believed she got the rabbit after finding out about Brown as some kind of counter move to Jennifer having gotten the puppy, like a jilted lover getting even with her ex by showing up with a new lover on her arm. It just seemed so like Wendy to do something of the sort that I never even considered another option … however if the dates on her letters are correct then that cant be the reason…to bad. As for Wendy having to give up Peter…I still think Hoffman would be the most likely person responsible for that. Of course it’s not possible for me to know that for a complete serenity because we only have Jennifer’s single comment to go on, but I believe Wendy was made to give up Peter before the orphanage went completely crazy and the Aristocrat club took over so Hoffman would still be the one making the rules. With Hoffman still at the helm I don’t think the other children would have the power to make Wendy give up Peter without his knowledge or approval. Also Jennifer never makes mention of any friction between Wendy and the other aristocrats so I cant see why they would want to force her to give up Peter. I could be totally wrong (wouldn’t be the first time) but for my money Hoffman would seem the most likely perpetrator. Damn, I hadn’t noticed the time line problems with my idea about why Wendy started taking care of Peter. I’d always believed she got the rabbit after finding out about Brown as some kind of counter move to Jennifer having gotten the puppy, like a jilted lover getting even with her ex by showing up with a new lover on her arm. It just seemed so like Wendy to do something of the sort that I never even considered another option … however if the dates on her letters are correct then that cant be the reason…to bad.

As for Wendy having to give up Peter…I still think Hoffman would be the most likely person responsible for that. Of course it’s not possible for me to know that for a complete serenity because we only have Jennifer’s single comment to go on, but I believe Wendy was made to give up Peter before the orphanage went completely crazy and the Aristocrat club took over so Hoffman would still be the one making the rules. With Hoffman still at the helm I don’t think the other children would have the power to make Wendy give up Peter without his knowledge or approval. Also Jennifer never makes mention of any friction between Wendy and the other aristocrats so I cant see why they would want to force her to give up Peter. I could be totally wrong (wouldn’t be the first time) but for my money Hoffman would seem the most likely perpetrator.

]]> By: PokerNemesis http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/2009/06/15/plot-structure-story/see-all-walkthrough-with-commentary-rag-princess-sews-chapter-part-3-the-salon-and-eleanor/#comment-17362 PokerNemesis Sun, 21 Jun 2009 02:26:41 +0000 http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/?p=356#comment-17362 RuleofEleanor wrote: <blockquote>I’m sure it was Hoffman who made Wendy give up Peter.</blockquote> In the dream-plot, it was the Aristocrats who were responsible for Wendy and Peter being parted. How do you know that in real life Wendy didn't have to give up the rabbit due to some business connected to the Aristocrat Club? RuleofEleanor wrote:

I’m sure it was Hoffman who made Wendy give up Peter.

In the dream-plot, it was the Aristocrats who were responsible for Wendy and Peter being parted. How do you know that in real life Wendy didn’t have to give up the rabbit due to some business connected to the Aristocrat Club?

]]> By: PokerNemesis http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/2009/06/15/plot-structure-story/see-all-walkthrough-with-commentary-rag-princess-sews-chapter-part-3-the-salon-and-eleanor/#comment-17361 PokerNemesis Sun, 21 Jun 2009 02:22:13 +0000 http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/?p=356#comment-17361 RuleofEleanor wrote: <blockquote>It could have been Peter being let out of his cage that changed Hoffmans mind.</blockquote> That doesn't fit the time-line. Jennifer tells us in the "Once Upon A Time" chapter: <blockquote>Peter the rabbit… He was the pet that Wendy suddenly decided to take care of. It was the same time I started looking after Brown…</blockquote> Wendy decided to take care of Peter at the same time that Jennifer started looking after Brown. The first time that Jennifer mentions Brown is <blockquote>22 July From J to W Dear Wendy, I have great news. I found something wonderful! I look forward to every morning now, and hope you will too.</blockquote> Obviously, Wendy does not know about Brown yet, so if she started taking care of Peter in response to learning about Brown, Wendy did not start taking care of Peter until sometime after 22 July. But Hoffman writes of Peter being let out of his cage long before 22 July: <blockquote>12 April 1930 Today, I gave that child a good scolding. When I found out she let the rabbit escape, that was the last straw.</blockquote> So the incident about Peter being let out of his cage has nothing to do with Wendy giving up Peter. She hadn't even decided to take care of him until long after that. RuleofEleanor wrote:

It could have been Peter being let out of his cage that changed Hoffmans mind.

That doesn’t fit the time-line.

Jennifer tells us in the “Once Upon A Time” chapter:

Peter the rabbit… He was the pet that Wendy suddenly decided to take care of. It was the same time I started looking after Brown…

Wendy decided to take care of Peter at the same time that Jennifer started looking after Brown.

The first time that Jennifer mentions Brown is

22 July
From J to W
Dear Wendy,

I have great news. I found something wonderful!
I look forward to every morning now, and hope you will too.

Obviously, Wendy does not know about Brown yet, so if she started taking care of Peter in response to learning about Brown, Wendy did not start taking care of Peter until sometime after 22 July.

But Hoffman writes of Peter being let out of his cage long before 22 July:

12 April 1930

Today, I gave that child a good scolding.
When I found out she let the rabbit escape, that was the last straw.

So the incident about Peter being let out of his cage has nothing to do with Wendy giving up Peter. She hadn’t even decided to take care of him until long after that.

]]> By: RuleofEleanor http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/2009/06/15/plot-structure-story/see-all-walkthrough-with-commentary-rag-princess-sews-chapter-part-3-the-salon-and-eleanor/#comment-17356 RuleofEleanor Sun, 21 Jun 2009 00:56:02 +0000 http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/?p=356#comment-17356 I suppose I should clarify my statement. What I meant was that if Eleanor had a real bird at some point, Jennifer would have spoken of it when she talked about Wendy being forced to give up Peter, but because she never did say anything about it logical it did not exist. I’m sure it was Hoffman who made Wendy give up Peter. He runs the orphanage so it would be up to him to decided what would be allowed and what would not be. It seems safe to assume that in the begging he let Wendy have Peter, maybe even got her the rabbit, but at some point something happened or changed so that he decided to make her give Peter up. It could have been Peter being let out of his cage that changed Hoffmans mind. I suppose I should clarify my statement. What I meant was that if Eleanor had a real bird at some point, Jennifer would have spoken of it when she talked about Wendy being forced to give up Peter, but because she never did say anything about it logical it did not exist.

I’m sure it was Hoffman who made Wendy give up Peter. He runs the orphanage so it would be up to him to decided what would be allowed and what would not be. It seems safe to assume that in the begging he let Wendy have Peter, maybe even got her the rabbit, but at some point something happened or changed so that he decided to make her give Peter up. It could have been Peter being let out of his cage that changed Hoffmans mind.

]]> By: PokerNemesis http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/2009/06/15/plot-structure-story/see-all-walkthrough-with-commentary-rag-princess-sews-chapter-part-3-the-salon-and-eleanor/#comment-17346 PokerNemesis Sat, 20 Jun 2009 23:48:25 +0000 http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/?p=356#comment-17346 The Salon appears to be in exactly the same state of disruption during the "Bird of Happiness" chapter. The only difference in the Salon is that, in the "Bird of Happiness" chapter, there is a bucket knight and a rubbish bin in the Salon, but during the Rag Princess Sews" chapter there is not either of these. I now get the strong impression that the red items on the floor of the Salon (in both chapters) are rose petals and not bird feathers. When we see bird feathers on the floors of the corridors during the "Bird of Happiness" chapter, they are of a larger size than what we see in the Salon (in fact, the feathers we see are much too large to actually be appropriate to the size of the red bird itself!). The Salon appears to be in exactly the same state of disruption during the “Bird of Happiness” chapter. The only difference in the Salon is that, in the “Bird of Happiness” chapter, there is a bucket knight and a rubbish bin in the Salon, but during the Rag Princess Sews” chapter there is not either of these.

I now get the strong impression that the red items on the floor of the Salon (in both chapters) are rose petals and not bird feathers. When we see bird feathers on the floors of the corridors during the “Bird of Happiness” chapter, they are of a larger size than what we see in the Salon (in fact, the feathers we see are much too large to actually be appropriate to the size of the red bird itself!).

]]> By: PokerNemesis http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/2009/06/15/plot-structure-story/see-all-walkthrough-with-commentary-rag-princess-sews-chapter-part-3-the-salon-and-eleanor/#comment-17317 PokerNemesis Sat, 20 Jun 2009 09:17:05 +0000 http://ruleofrosemysteries.com/?p=356#comment-17317 RuleofEleanor wrote: <blockquote>I don’t think she ever had a real bird. If Wendy wasn’t allowed to keep Peter, I find it hard to believe they would allow Eleanor to keep a pet of her own.</blockquote> I agree that the red bird was never a real bird. But I don't get your reasoning. Are you suggesting that Hoffman didn't allow Wendy to have Peter as a pet? Although Jennifer says (rather obscurely) that Wendy "had to give him up," I know of no evidence that this means that Hoffman didn't allow Peter as Wendy's pet, or that it was Hoffman that made Wendy give him up. In the "Once Upon A Time" chapter, Peter's cage is in the Sickroom of the orphanage. I think this (along with the drawing of the bunny prominently displayed in the Sickroom) implies that Wendy openly kept Peter in the Sickroom with the permission of Hoffman. Hoffman writes of the rabbit, in his diary, only that he got angry that somebody let the rabbit escape. RuleofEleanor wrote:

I don’t think she ever had a real bird. If Wendy wasn’t allowed to keep Peter, I find it hard to believe they would allow Eleanor to keep a pet of her own.

I agree that the red bird was never a real bird.

But I don’t get your reasoning.

Are you suggesting that Hoffman didn’t allow Wendy to have Peter as a pet?

Although Jennifer says (rather obscurely) that Wendy “had to give him up,” I know of no evidence that this means that Hoffman didn’t allow Peter as Wendy’s pet, or that it was Hoffman that made Wendy give him up. In the “Once Upon A Time” chapter, Peter’s cage is in the Sickroom of the orphanage. I think this (along with the drawing of the bunny prominently displayed in the Sickroom) implies that Wendy openly kept Peter in the Sickroom with the permission of Hoffman. Hoffman writes of the rabbit, in his diary, only that he got angry that somebody let the rabbit escape.

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