An Over-abundance of Joshuas
Posted by PokerNemesis in Clues, Mysteries, Plot Structure & Story, SymbolismRevenantChild asked, in the previous blog-post’s comment-thread:
At the pre-game opening, didn’t jennifer say to wendy that ” my name is joshua and i will serve you princess”-thingy? then why is joshua a bear? could he be a stand-in while the real “joshua” is somewhere?
The bear doll might well be a stand-in… but the issue is: for whom?
Wendy began her first letter to Jennifer by addressing it: “To Mr. Joshua, the bear in distress”.
At the end of “The Gingerbread House” chapter, Wendy chose to name the bear doll “Joshua”. Why?
Is the bear doll a stand-in for Jennifer?
Or does Wendy think of both Jennifer (whom she addressed as “my prince” in her letters) and the bear doll as a stand-in for the original Joshua, whom Wendy knew?
Might the original Joshua have been the Prince of the Aristocrat club? And was Joshua the Bear used as a stand-in Prince after the original Joshua died? Did Wendy thereby keep Joshua’s death a secret from the Aristocrats, making up an excuse of some sort (such as feeling ill) for Joshua’s absence?
Did Wendy ever stand in for the original Prince Joshua (Gregory’s son) herself by pretending to be Prince Joshua? At the beginning of the “Unlucky Clover Field” chapter, Wendy-disguised-as-Joshua said “I am the Prince, and the Prince rules!” If the Prince was never anybody but Joshua the Bear, what is the meaning of that scene, and the scenes of Wendy-disguised as-Joshua sitting on the throne in the first chapter, and during the in-between-chapters times on the airship? Did Wendy ever deceive the Aristocrats by disguising herself as Prince Joshua?
It seems to me that there are many possibilities to consider.
~
Of course, any discussion of Joshua the Bear as a possible stand-in should address the little Princess doll as well.
Were the little Princess doll and the Joshua the Bear doll just figurehead rulers (puppets, as they say) during Jennifer’s forgotten past, with Diana or Wendy running the Aristocrat Club indirectly?
Was the little Princess doll just a dream-device for Jennifer to block her memories of having seen Wendy acting openly as the Princess?
Were both dolls used as stand-ins, during Jennifer’s forgotten past, for the Prince and Princess after the original Prince Joshua (Gregory’s son) died?
I find the little Princess doll to be quite mysterious. If the little Princess doll was Jennifer’s doll before the airship crash that she survived, how did it get to the orphanage and to the position of Princess of the Aristocrat Club?
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Look out for a bunch of random thoughts.
There may be something interesting, but most likely it doesn’t make sense. 
Perhaps the Princess doll was used as a stand in for Wendy when she was too ill to undertake her duties as the Princess? Of course that’s assuming her illnesses were real and not just for attention (though I doubt Hoffman would allow her to lie around if he didn’t think there was anything wrong).
Has anyone brought up the possibility that Joshua may have been at the orphanage with Wendy? Most likely, and I’ve just missed it.
As for Joshua the Bear, I’m thinking he was a stand-in for when Jennifer moved up in rank enough to be crowned the prince, something I’m sure Wendy was working on behind the scenes (it would look bad for the Princess if she allowed a new orphan to be crowned prince without having to prove them self).
Joshua the bear wasn’t at the orphanage before Jennifer, was he? He was given to Wendy after escaping from Gregory’s, so he couldn’t have been a stand-in for the original Joshua (assuming the other orphans didn’t know him). But then if he had been an orphan to begin with the bear could’ve been used at times as a stand-in…
Um, I don’t have any other thoughts the moment, though I feel I’ve left something out of my post… X|
*EDIT*
Uh, are we 100% sure that there was a Prince rank before Jennifer arrived at the orphanage? Perhaps it was a new rank Wendy made for Joshua the Bear after she got the bear (in anticipation for Jennifer), but before Jennifer arrived at the orphanage. Jennifer wouldn’t have been taken to the orphanage straight after leaving Gregory, so it wouldn’t have been too suss for a new rank to be introduced.
I apologize for the long post. I tend to use a lot of words to say nothing at all.
Cherrona says:
and…
Gregory outlived his son, so Joshua would never have been part of the Orphanage system. Orphans typically don’t have living parents…
So….many…Joshuas!
-explodes-
LOL !
~
Perhaps a list would be helpful:
1. Joshua, the son of Gregory. The original owner of the bear doll. Gregory seemed to have confused Jennifer (and probably Wendy) with his son, Joshua.
2. Joshua the Bear… the “Bear Prince”. Named Joshua by Wendy.
3. Wendy-disguised-as-Joshua, who said, “I am the Prince, and the Prince Rules!”
4. Jennifer… who says “My name is Joshua…” (in the pre-game video), and who is addressed first as “Mr. Joshua, the bear in distress” and later as “my Prince” in Wendy’s letters. Jennifer wrote to Wendy that Gregory “calls me Joshua”.
MincePiePrivateEye wrote,
Not as an orphan, true. But might Joshua have attended Hoffman’s classes as a student, since he lived very near the orphanage?
The name chart in the orphanage classroom has one, and only one, name on it for every letter of the alphabet… except “J” (which is missing). What is Jennifer’s dreaming-mind getting up to by that omission in the pattern? Is Jennifer blocking the memory of seeing her own name on the classroom chart, for some reason? Or might the missing “J” relate to Joshua’s name?
“Orphans typically don’t have living parents…”
What about Annie, from the musical?
Oh no wait, they really did die, she just believed they were alive D:
“What is Jennifer’s dreaming-mind getting up to by that omission in the pattern? Is Jennifer blocking the memory of seeing her own name on the classroom chart, for some reason? Or might the missing “J” relate to Joshua’s name?”
My theory is that maybe Jennifer didn’t feel she belonged in the orphanage. She was an outcast, with no memories (so maybe she was’t even sure she could classify as an ‘orphan’, because her parents could have been alive, for all she knew ) and so she humbly deletes the name in her dream-world.
The bear and Jen being a stand in for the real Joshua kind of explains what Wendy as Joshua said in the beginning of the Airship part of our adventure.
“I am the Prince and the Prince Rules!” “It’s your life, but you’ll play by MY rules!”
If you think about it, Jen has to live up to Wendy’s “Joshua” fantasy. When she doesn’t, she’s punished.
But really the only one the Prince image seemed to cast a shadow on what Jen, who was eventually expected to fill Joshua’s shoes.
BTW: I don’t know about the play, but in the movie, Annie’s parents are dead. They died in a fire.
MincePiePrivateEye wrote:
I think you misunderstood me. I meant what if Joshua was an orphan to begin with, but was then adopted by Gregory, then died. That would explain the lack of a mother/wife, and the faded photo could’ve been taken on the day he was adopted (by Hoffman perhaps?).
While we’re on the topic of the Prince and Princess dolls:
Just got through the cutscene at the end of the Rag Princess chapter, where Jen’s given a red crayon. There’s a brief shot during that which shows the two dolls tied together, back to back.
The following is a bunch of unpolished theories that might not make sense yet
. Maybe it shows, representatively atleast, how the Aristocrats have decided to act against Wendy’s wishes? Meg does start with ‘a word from the Princess’, but maybe that’s just referring to her getting the Red Crayon? Let’s assume that Wendy was indeed working behind the scenes to bring Jennifer up in rank. I think it’s a possibility that the Aristocrats ratted her out, and then tauntingly gave her a red crayon anyway because their hierarchy was breaking down (but if that was so, then this would’ve probably happened after Brown’s death, because it seems that Wendy still has control there). Just tossing that out for others to work with.
Apologies for the off-topic. If there’s a more relevant post that I can repost this under, let me know.
OOhh, I agree fully with Cherrona there. At least, it’s a pretty good theory xD
But I wonder if you see it that way, you suddenly see how the game (somehow) hints it?
(and yes, in the play Annie’s parents are dead. We’re doing it here and I’m both in the play and in charge of backstage. I’m fully doing RoR doodles of stray dog and the orphans on the wall of the orphanage set because it is JUST TOO GOOD: 1930s….orphans….MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *cough* . I did that last year with 42nd Street xD)
Cherrona say:
I believe you are correct. I actually put a smiley face icon at the end of my original post to depict a light-hearted post – But it ended up looking like I was laughing about children with no parents [blimey!]. That would have gone down like a lead balloon, I’m sure…
Here’s the belated simley face icon
I was watching this thread of comments and a line in comment #6 by elyonum caught my attention. You wondered if Jennifer felt that she didn’t belong in the orphanage. But she herself in the OUAT chapter says “It’s a small locker, but it was just for me. My name was even on it. They made me feel welcome. I was so happy…I’d move my shoes in and out, over and over again…”
That comment alone makes the possibility that she didn’t feel that she belonged unlikely. There are also the kind sounding voices calling her name during the OUAT chapter as you tour the orphanage. She may have been in denial at first about the deaths of her parents and so didn’t feel like an orphan. But evidently some attempt was made to welcome her. I wondered why her name wasn’t on the progress chart myself and have just never come up with an explanation.
I kind of like the theory that he had either been an orphan who Gregory had adopted or had attended classes there. It gives a basis for his presence in the orphanage and the fact that he may have been known to the orphans. But I have a theory of my own about that…
Here it goes, you can laugh about it if you want!
What if Joshua and Wendy were related? You know, siblings. Many parents call their children prince or princess as terms of endearment and it got carried on by the children at the orphanage. Fairy tales show us that princes and princesses aren’t always happy souls. Then Gregory adopted Joshua, but not Wendy as he wanted a son to raise to help him in the fields. This rejection threw Wendy over the edge. Why him and not her?
Perhaps this is the key to Wendy’s hold on Stray Dog. Being siblings they look somewhat alike, especially if they were twins. Things might have gone along okay, but Joshua died and Wendy saw her chance to be accepted by Gregory, but only as Joshua. This is where things went from bad to worse.
Jennifer’s arrival changed all of bliss that Wendy may have felt when accepted by Gregory. Suddenly he had Joshua back full-time and there was no chance for her charade. That was when Wendy arranged for Jennifer to escape from the cellar. It wasn’t because she felt sorry for Jennifer, it was because she wanted the attention for herself. Her psyche must have been unraveling by this point. I think that Gregory must have been grabbing replacement Joshuas and keeping them until Wendy/Joshua revealed them as imposters to Stray Dog. The end was quick and violent.
But something about Jennifer prevented that. Wendy saw in her a possible alliance where one could be prince and the other princess at the orphanage. It probably would have worked except for Brown. Suddenly, Wendy was having to share the attention with the dog and whatever balance she had regained collapsed. Finally came the clash between Jennifer and Wendy over the death of Brown and Wendy’s fall from power over the RCA.
Wendy played the last card that she had. Gregory’s love for his son. Probably she went to his home and played the “I’ve been wronged” card and commanded the weak minded adult to avenge the wrong. We know the rest at the orphanage. But what happened to Wendy?
There it is, my new grand theory. Masq, PN, everyone, I’m ready!
Wow, Lost Orphan, that was definitely an interesting theory. I really like it. One thing, though.
Lost Orphan said:
That is very true, but there’s a comment she makes upon examining the window in the first room that has stuck with me. She says something about how ‘only the sun greeted her warmly’. Between that and some of the sentiments she had about feeling more like an adult with the other children or not feeling accepted by them, she seems to be back and forth as to whether or not she did feel like she belonged, so that’s something that continues to throw me off about OUAT. What do you make of that? I can’t seem to find a solid opinion on it myself; I’d be interested in hearing anyone else’s thoughts.
Hi Hana
I do agree with your response knowing how children and, in some cases, adults treat newcomers and often those that they have known for a while. I was troubled by the fact that Jennifer seemed to be segregated from the others until someone (PN, I think) brought forward the theory that perhaps the “Filth” room had been Clara’s and had been inherited by Jennifer. That brought troubling images to mind and I tried to block it from thought.
I have to wonder about the comment at the window. I wondered if that comment related to the fact that each day was a new day and with that new day came hope that she would leave the orphanage. Once she left that window she was forced to live with others who had either given up hope or discouraged those who had hope. Quite probably when there was the chance for one of the children to be adopted the others felt upset and betrayed by the “friend” who was going to forsake them and go away with parents. I can see that as a warm greeting that wasn’t conveyed by the others, including the adults. She may have been welcomed and made to feel welcome (i.e. the locker), but the fact is that they were all (including the adults) in a fairly hopeless situation.
Hello!
Ahh, I see. That makes a lot of sense. In that case it seems to make the chapter as a whole make more sense to me. All the different conflicting elements kept me utterly baffled, but as I’ve been turning it over, it seems more like it has a lot of juxtaposed elements (like the happy appearance and warm voices conflicting with the disturbing things she alludes to as PN pointed out in his blog post).
As for Joshua, I…honestly haven’t the slightest idea. D: That is something that really and truly does confuse me and I have yet to wrap my head around it at all. I wish I had something of more substance to say about it. The idea of Joshua being an orphan before being adopted by Gregory did strike something in me though, since it’s always bothered me a lot that the photograph of the two of them was devoid of a mother figure, and a mother/ wife is never even mentioned by Gregory as far as I know. It seemed very strange to me that he is so obviously attached to Joshua yet, if he is his biological son, his wife must be either absent or dead, but he doesn’t seem to even think about her at all where Joshua’s playroom is still in tact (if rather dilapidated and abused and, ultimately, sealed off), and he tries so desperately to replace him through Wendy and Jennifer both. Either he actively disliked his wife, assuming he had one, or her death/ absence doesn’t bother him?
It just seems so bizarre to me. The only way I could explain that would be to suggest that her loss made him cling that much harder to Joshua and so -his- death finally pushed him over the edge, but why would that make him ignore her completely? Oi vey…probably irrelevant questions. I’m sorry. ):
Lost Orphan wrote:
It would be especially interesting if Wendy and Joshua were twins. Then I could easily believe that Wendy-disguised-as-Joshua might have deceived even the Aristocrats. It is one thing to deceive crazy Gregory, but quite another thing to deceive children well-acquainted with Wendy—even in an attic lit only by candle-light.
That is the mystery of it. I think that wendy was ruling by then and that , as you pointed out, the bear was serving as his stand-in. I don’t think that she was necessarily deceiving the RCA, they knew exactly who she was. Fooling Gregory was all that she needed to do. It was the power that she had over him that kept the RCA from open rebellion against her.
I am at a loss as to why, if they were twins, siblings, whatever, Wendy didn’t simply leave the orphanage upon Joshua’s death and take his place in Gregory’s home. Obviously the authorities might have gotten involved if she disappeared from the orphanage, but we know that when she wore his clothing she looked enough like him to fool at least some people. And that paragraph brings to mind another possible theory, a troubling theory.
We have theorized about the cause of his death but I don’t once remember anyone dicussing the possibilty of murder. Could Wendy, wanting to be accepted by Gregory have seen Joshua as an obstacle to her happiness. The scene at the start of the game with her playing with Jennifer could just as easily have been her playing with Joshua at another time and place. Could the fact that he was never going to accept her as he had Joshua have brought her to the point of killing Joshua to take his place? We’ve talked about the broken swing and the possibilty of serious injury or even death from a fall. Could she have engineered it? It’s kind of been decided that she was a rather pathetic, but mixed up little girl. Rage will do crazy things to even the most stable person.
Perhaps they were playing and the topic of “he loves me but not you” came up. she realized that the swing wasn’t safe but encouraged him to play on it anyhow. The rope broke and he was injured or killed.
She was adamant about removing the gun from his home when she “rescued” Jennifer. I think that she loved him and wanted to be accepted by him as his child/son and was fearful of losing him if he decided to take his own life.
What do you think? Have I misseed anything?
Actually I brought up the possibility of them being twins in that post you quoted, PN.
Lost Orphan wrote:
It would also provide a stronger motive for Wendy to arrange for Martha’s death when Martha wouldn’t stop writing letters to the police that cast suspicion on Gregory.
Totally true! Martha was the largest threat to that relationship and had to be stopped.
Lost Orphan wrote:
Can you think of any way to mesh that idea with the killing of the children that Gregory kidnapped?
If Gregory suspected, on some level, that Wendy was responsible for Joshua’s—or the kidnapped children’s—death… could locking Jennifer up in the basement have been, in Gregory’s mind, an attempt to protect Jennifer from Wendy? (This might also lead to an alternative perspective on boarding up the door to Joshua’s room… was it an attempt to keep Wendy out of the house, rather than being designed to keep himself out of Joshua’s room?)
Or could it even possibly be that the true Stray Dog was Wendy, luring children to come play at Gregory’s house?
Obstacles.
I think that Gregory, wanting his son back, began taking children that , to him, were “Joshua”. This was unacceptable to Wendy who had to be at the orphanage and not there to be Joshua at all times.
The children could probably have been kept in the basement room to make it harder for them to sneak out. Wendy would find out that he had found “Joshua”
when she visited Gregory. We know she did this because Martha saw them together. Wendy would arrange for the “real” Joshua to reappear and the unfortunate child who was suddenly an imposter met a sudden end because they couldn’t be freed to bring back the authorities.
Why this didn’t happen with Jennifer I haven’t figured out.
I think that Gregory was too distraught to see Joshua’s death as anything but an accident. Wendy was pulling the strings by this point and I think that the adult did anything he had to to keep his precious son. He wasn’t in his right mind and probably was having a hard time telling “true” right from wrong.
I can’t think of a reason why she would risk him finding a replacement for Joshua. She wanted him for herself. Stray Dog was simply a story she told to keep the area children away from “her” home.
If Wendy was responsible for the death of Joshua, another possible motive for killing Martha—and stopping the letters to the police—would be that Wendy might fear the crime could be traced to her by the police, if they started investigating.
I think that it is a very real possibility. She was obsessed with having a home, but not stupid.
The comment about the doll made me think about Kim as a child with her own dolls. Many small girls imagine their dolls to be real people. Since we see what is apparently the doll falling from the airship with her we can assume that the doll WAS Jennifer’s. What is confusing me is the line “Her friend, the Princess of the Red Rose was always at her side,” at the beginning of the storybook.
Was the name “Princess of the Red Rose” something that Jennifer made up prior to coming to the orphanage? If so, was there really a Red Crayon Society? Or just a loose assembly of very confused children who were trapped in a fantasy world ruled by an opportunist who saw a chance to control them?
Lost Orphan wrote:
Perhaps Jennifer’s dreaming-mind extended the name “Princess of the Red Rose” retroactively to the time before the airship crash, even though the doll would not—in Jennifer’s actual forgotten past—have been called that until it arrived at the orphanage.
But how did the doll arrive at the orphanage? Why don’t we see the doll during the “Gingerbread House” chapter if Jennifer brought it with her from the airship crash site?
I wrote:
A new idea is forming in my imagination about that… but I think that discussion belongs in a thread associated with “The Little Princess” storybook. I’ll post a link from this thread when it is written up.
But how did the doll arrive at the orphanage?
It’s a good question, since Jennifer says in Once Upon a Time that all the toys were *old*, and only Thomas played in the play room with them (or maybe she says he just played there, I’m not sure)
As interesting as it might be to speculate about Wendy and Joshua being siblings, it is hard to justify the idea as legitimate without being able to produce at least a hint from the game that suggests it.
It IS true that the titles Prince and Princess may denote a sibling relationship and not just a matrimonial relationship, but is there more than that?
Can anyone find in the self-portrait of Wendy-standing-with-Joshua (hanging on the Sickroom wall) an indication that it is a sibling relationship being depicted? If there is such a clue anywhere, I would think that it might be there.
I dont’ see it as a very real possiblity unless you consider this may be about incest…
Prince and Princess is how all fairytales tend to end up. The prince marries the princess… the princess marries the prince and they live happily ever after. Cinderella… Snow White… Sleeping Beauty… Princess and the Pea…
Also, it seems strange you say Wendy killed Joshua because she has so many reminders of him around her at all times. I do like the idea that Joshua Wilson and Wendy knew each other. Hell, they probably talked about airships and things together. But I don’t see them being siblings. I think something like that would’ve been hinted at a bit stronger if it were important. Most of what I see is and can be interpereted as “just like in the fairytales’. Well in most fairytales, the princess and the prince aren’t related.
She calls her prince Joshua. The prince she wants to serve her and be with her forever. It doesn’t really sound like she didn’t at least have fondness for Joshua…
And why would she rescue Jen if this were true? Jen to Wendy, if she knew about the other children and had had them killed to keep police out, would have been “just another kid.” But because she seems to become a Joshua substitute, I think we can assume that Wendy’s feelings for Joshua were more positive than negative, leading me to doubt that she had a hand in orchastrating his death.
It’s a pretty speculation… but I woudln’t take it too seriously.
It’s like a lot of my speculations. Sometimes its fun to write out. But looking at the evidence, I can’t see anything that would solidly say “They’re siblings” that doesn’t say “And the Prince and the Princess lived happily ever after like in the fairytales.”
Because if you think on it, that’s what Wendy wanted. Happily ever after. All the good princesses in all the fairytales get that. Wendy’s just not as good a princess as she pretends to be.
Also, if they’re siblings, why isn’t Wendy in that picture? Why do we only see Joshua? Wouldn’t Wendy, as a twin, be in that picture as well? If it was taken after Joshua died, why is the picture happy?
I don’t think a lot of it adds up. Like I said, Pretty Speculation.
(looks up at the posts above)
…A lot of it too…
The idea of Wendy and Joshua being siblings might be very vague BUT it can be a possibility, if a small teeny-weeny evidence is seen in the game. As for the drawing of Wendy-standing-with-Joshua in the sickroom… Well, one could immediately think that they’re just close friends.
And…
PokerNemesis wrote:
Uwaaaaah~ T^T So many Joshuas!!! My brain juice just got sucked dry from reading that.
Oh, well… All I could say is that when the original owner of the teddy bear, the real Joshua, died, how did Wendy ACTUALLY acquire the bear?
Was (adult) Jennifer who was locked in the gingerbread house, then rescued by Wendy, and gave the bear to her in exchange for the broach, based on real events or was it just a dream being mixed up in different events from the actual timeline? Because I find it a little strange that if Wendy was playing “Joshua” in Gregory’s place before Jennifer was found, she should have gotten the teddy bear first before Jennifer could.
…Or am I wrong in thinking about this?
I am not sure Wendy “played” as Joshua before Jen went to the orphanage.
If she knew him, maybe “loved” him, then she’d probably have been around before he died. If Gregory knew her from then he may not have harmed her. But he wouldn’t obey her as Wendy. When Wendy begins training Stray Dog, she then disguises herself as Joshua?
At least that’s how I thought of it.
I mean, her trapsing around as Joshua before she found Jen doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Why didn’t she just take the bear from the basement on her own? Obviously it was in the room before Jen left. And if Wendy hadn’t wanted it before, why would Jen take it with her?
I’ve been thinking about that lately… Why did Jen take the bear? Did Wendy ask for it? Did Jen just take it to give something to her captor? Did Wendy’s first letter inspire her to give her the bear?
Hello, I found out about this blog today! I’ve never played RoR but I’m looking foward to it, despite the fact that almost all suvival horror’s freak me out I’m really interested in RoR because of its story and unique atmosphere…what I’m really looking for is a answer regarding brown: he’s my favorite character, and also probrably one of the most important characters, however It isnt clear to me: was he killed by the red crayon aristocracy?Was Brown even REAL? makes me confuse!
Regarding the post…
Wow, I’ve never seen things this way, it’s looks like the dolls play an important hole in the plot, all teorys seems quite intriguing, and yeah, lot’s of joshua, but maybe all of them are just references to the original one? That’s what I think….
and Masq:
“When Wendy begins training Stray Dog, she then disguises herself as Joshua?”
I dont think so, if it was this way, Martha wouldnt recognize her, she clearly states that Gregory and Wendy were acting strange
Welome, Mikiko!
I hope you can play the game soon.
Masq wrote:
Hmmmm… Maybe Jennifer took the bear in exchange for a “token of acceptance” in the orphanage? Like the broach. If Wendy asked for the bear, maybe Jennifer asked for “another home” (the orphanage) aside Gregory’s house. Perhaps the broach was a symbol that she is accepted (or felt accepted) in the orphanage. When Wendy got the bear, perhaps she named it Joshua after her friend. Didn’t she said something like “I’ll cherish him (the bear) as much as I cherished you”? I’m not sure if that’s the exact dialogue, but could the phrase “as much as I cherished you” refer to Jennifer or the real Joshua? Perhaps she named the bear as Joshua in the memory of the deceased real Joshua.
Oh, I’m also thinking that the reason why Wendy didn’t have the teddy bear before Jennifer was found by Gregory is that the real Joshua could still be alive. Perhaps the gap between Joshua’s death and Jennifer staying in Gregory’s house is too short for Wendy to acquire the bear.
Hmmm…
I don’t see Jen taking it as a token of acceptance quite like I read Revenant Child say. It seems that the trading of gifts is a personal thing, not about the orphaange or Gregory. They say their promise as they do it. At least for Jennifer it seems to be. Which was why I was unsure why she brought the bear with her.
But Wendy’s brooch seems to be important as well. It’s like “I want you to have this, that way you’ll always have a peice of me with you.” It kinda makes the blow harder when she flings it across the floor. So I was wondering if Joshua the Bear had seemed, possibly, important to Jennifer, or if Wendy was the only one the Bear mattered to.
I also thought of somehting else.
What if Jen actually asked Wendy for her brooch?
In the little princess chapter, the story book has the Princess Doll in it. There was a debate going on that this “Rose Princess Doll” may have been jennifer’s doll at one point. What if Wendy got the brooch off the doll? Or the brooch just reminded Jennifer of the doll and she wanted it? Wendy may have used Jen’s asking to get the Bear.
“Bring me the bear. Then I’ll let you have it.”
Maybe?
Masq wrote:
Imagine a little girl kept in pretty much solitary confinement for 9 months with only a teddy bear for company. Do you think that the teddy bear would become a companion to her and come to mean a lot to her?
If Jennifer loved the teddy bear, that might be a major reason for Wendy to ask for it. By swapping the broach for the teddy bear Wendy succeeded in removing a rival for Jennifer’s affections from Jennifer’s life (as Wendy would later want to do with Brown as well), while at the same time getting Jennifer to wear a token of their love.
PokerNemesis wrote:
I interpret it more as Wendy wanting something that reminds her of Jennifer. Sort of a substitute for when Jennifer isn’t around. And it means more to Wendy because it possibly means a lot to Jennifer (like you mentioned, she would’ve become attached to it during her stay with Gregory).
I think she acts the way a love starved orphan might act in order to keep what little love they have 
)
Not only that, but it did belong to Joshua to begin with, so it has duel meaning for Wendy.
(for the record I don’t really support the evil Wendy theory
Oh man…. I missed out a lot of discussions…
Need to read back. Despite the fact I played the game, it seems I forgot it faster than I could ever imagine. Now I need to refresh my memoris back…
And…. a lot of things needed to be read. Wish I could online more frequently yet I dont have the opportunity to do so (;’_';)
I liked this discussion. Did anyone else have a theory on Joshua the Bear begin given to Wendy? There’s no way to know for sure but you never know someone may have a smoking gun in their pocket.
In my point of view, Joshua is just a play card. Joshua was really Stray Dogs son however, stray dog killed Joshua in a drunken rampage of his own which is why he looks for “peas” accept he doesn’t go and show it to his son, he makes it his son. Jennifer was with Stray Dog which is why she was called Joshua by Wendy. That can be one reason that she called Jennifer Joshua. Another thing, Wendy was playing the role of the “new Joshua” because Jennifer was no longer spending as much time with her which led to the series of events that in the end killed the RCA *red crayon aristocracy* But, in the process of becoming Joshua, Wendy split her persona. On one side, she was the shy, timid and sickly Wendy, while on the other side she was the evil, cute, and manipulating Joshua. which is why in the beginning of the game you see Wendy and Joshua hand in hand, forehead to forehead, etc. So the confusion of there being many Joshua character’s is quite simple, Wendy is Joshua, Jennifer was named Joshua by Stray Dog and Stray Dog had a son named Joshua but now suffers from a psychological and alcoholic illness in which he refers to all his prey as Joshua.
Welcome Denise!
Denise wrote:
There is a drawing made by Wendy, put up on the wall of the sickroom, which shows her hand in hand with Joshua and which might represent a dual personality.
But in the forehead-to-forehead encounter with Wendy in the pre-game video, the person that says that she is “Joshua” is Jennifer.
wait,in the good end(once upon a time)in 1 of the leters,didnt jenifer say that the guy(im not sure what his name is) was calling her joshua but her name was jenifer ever since he resqued her?maybe joshua was that guys son,and jenifer looked extremly like him?i havent played this game b4,but,i hav seen videos from youtube,and the video was some1 playing the game start to finish,but they left out some of the facts like who gregory was,who the imps wer,so francly,im pretty confused from reading comments about the airship crashing and the doll falling out
Welcome, Ember !
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Well, I as kind of thinking, what, if Joshua wasn’t only the real prince, but also Wendys real lover?
Yeah, she made with Jennifer the pact anew in the Gingerbread House, she wants her in The Funeral to be the prince beside her as it seems, etc
But what, if she called Jennifer in the basement not only Joshua because Gregory called her like that?
The letters say “Fom W to J”
J can stand for Jennifer as for Joshua, also writes Wendy always Joshua and prince, both fitting to a boy like Gregorys son but not to Jennifer, who was a girl, even though Gregory mistook her for his son to stay sane.
What I want to say is, that Jennifer could have maybe stayed in the basement, but not all the time. Maybe the first letters went to the real Joshua, who died then and Wendy also used Jennifer – just like Gregory – as a substitute for her gone love, adressing him with Joshua and prince.
And just like with Gregory, Jennifer accepted that out of pity and the own wish to be loved and accepted.
If that would be it, then Wendy wanted the bear as the only real connection between her and her old, lost love and as another substitute. She also got angry at Brown (doll or not), because she noticed that her beloved Joshua was leaving her alone again (this time not by dying, but being unfaithful to her love by loving someone/something else).
That could also be a reason, why she came up with stray dog, trying to make Jennifer so scared that she would return to her position as Joshua after the plan with killing Brown/destroying the Brown doll hadn’t worked.