Did Wendy Commit Suicide By Hanging Herself? (Part 1)
Posted by PokerNemesis in Clues, Mysteries, Plot Structure & StoryIn my blog-post, A Very Interesting Shadow in the Main Hall of the Orphanage (Part 1), I argued that the shadow seems to be, at least in part, that of Wendy-dressed-as-Joshua who is up the stairs. But I also argued that the shadow seems to be, in part, that of a hanged person.
Could it be that the shadow is totally that of Wendy-dressed-as-Joshua, but that it is in some respects that of Wendy-as-Joshua in the dream-plot (up the stairs) and in other respects that of Wendy-as-Joshua from a time during Jennifer’s forgotten past? A time in which Wendy-as-Joshua had committed suicide by hanging?
Wendy has generally been thought to have been killed by Gregory. The last time that we see Wendy during the Stray Dog boss-battle, she is being pulled though a door, and out of our sight, by Gregory. Because we know that Wendy was not alive when the police came, and that Gregory killed the other orphans, it is natural enough to assume that Gregory killed Wendy as well. But we don’t actually see Gregory kill Wendy, and we know that Wendy had previously interacted safely with Gregory.
What is more, I have previously argued that the scene at the front door of the orphanage, in which Jennifer and Wendy interact, and which ends with Wendy being snatched away by Gregory, never actually occurred during Jennifer’s forgotten past. The scene is, I believe, a falsehood generated by Jennifer to avoid the truth. See my blog-posts:
The Stray Dog Boss-battle Mystery (Part 1)
The Stray Dog Boss-battle Mystery (Part 2)
The Stray Dog Boss-battle Mystery (Part 3)
The Stray Dog Boss-battle Mystery (Part 4)
So we don’t really know for certain how Wendy met her death.
But we do know that the theme song of the Rule of Rose game is “A Love Suicide”.
It has always seemed to me that the lyrics of “A Love Suicide” represent Wendy’s “ghost” (or Jennifer’s re-creation of Wendy in her memory) speaking to Jennifer. The lines “I can be so mean, you can beat me” seem to me to connect to Wendy’s submissive acceptance of Jennifer’s beating at the end of “The Funeral” chapter. But what does it mean for Wendy to say “I am a love suicide”?
If we accept the idea that Gregory pulled Wendy into the house and killed her, it seems to me that we can only think of this as Wendy’s suicide if we focus on Wendy’s lack of struggle against Gregory. This might be a justifiable conclusion, but it also has always seemed to me to be a bit of a stretch to consider this scene as a suicide on Wendy’s part.
Could it be that Wendy, dressed as Joshua, actually hanged herself during the orphanage massacre, rather than having been killed by Gregory? And the shadow of the hanging person (Wendy-as-Joshua) indicates this?
And might it even be that the way that Gregory actually came to shoot himself, was that he believed that he saw that his beloved son “Joshua” had hanged “himself”? And seeing this, Gregory said, “I’m sorry Joshua,” then aimed the gun at his own head and pulled the trigger?
Tags: Gregory, Wendy
Entries (RSS)
Since I have way too much free time tonight, I spent slightly over a half hour typing up the lyrics of “A Love Suicide” from my high quality mp3 of the song. There is one, and only one, line that I cannot unequivocally tell you I believe is correct.
Well, three words rather. The line is “…I’m in debt” and I have marked it in the lyrics. I believe that line is correct still, but I cannot confirm it. All other words and lines I am certain of, but I welcome any differences in opinion. However, be aware that these are the lyrics I hear, not the one’s floating around the web. Don’t just go quoting those at me. There is, since these are my personal lyrics, the possibility that I made a mistake though.
Oh, with the exception of the lines “I will do you harm/I will break my heart”. I am absolutely certain that it is “heart” not “arm”. I will not and do not agree with the currently accepted lyrics in that case. If you listen with the word heart in mind, I’m sure you will hear it too.
Also, I believe “I’m in debt” does make sense. First, ghosts often have “unfinished business”, so in a Western sense, it could be a ghost that is now forced to pay its debt. Under an Eastern idea, Buddhism and Hinduism believe that if you did not achieve Enlightenment in your previous life or you committed a bad deed, you will not move on so to speak and be reborn into another life until you “pay your debt”.
I’d also like to point out that Suicide has two meanings. The second one may hold some bearing.
Definition of Suicide: Noun
1. the intentional taking of one’s own life or a person who takes one’s own life
2. the destruction of one’s own interests or prospects
—————————————————————————————————-
Say, where is my shame
When I call your name
So please don’t set me free
I’m as heavy as can be
I will do you harm
I will break my heart
I’m a victim of your charms
I want to be dead
– When I am, “I’m in debt”
I can be so mean
You can beat me
I would like to shame you
I would like to blame you
Just because of my love to you
And life itself is just as innocent as roses in May
I know nothing can drive it away
Though life itself is just as brief as a candle in the wind
And it’s greedy, just like sin
Alone, but sane
I am a love suicide
‘Cause life itself is just as brief as a candle in the wind
It is pure white, just like sin
Alone, but sane
I am a love suicide
‘Cause life itself is just as innocent as roses in May
It is pure white, just like sin
I’m grateful, Passerby, for you posting your take on the lyrics. I had considered posting my own opinion above, but then decided to forgo doing that because I still have uncertainties about some lines.
In the past, long before my blog began, I contributed to forum threads devoted to trying to work out the lyrics. To the best of my knowledge, I was the first person to propose on the internet the reading of the line now widely accepted as “I know nothing can drive it away.” It may seem obvious now, but for a long time nobody could make out that line.
Passerby wrote:
I hear that line as “I want to be dead, when I am, I lament”.
Here’s what I hear when listening to A Love Suicide. Most of it’s the same as Passerby’s, except for a few things.
———————————————————————
Say when(where?) I reach my shame, when I call your name
So please don’t set me free, I’m as heavy as can be
I will do you harm, I will break my arm
I’m a victim of your charms
I want to be dead, when I am, I lament
I can be so mean, you can beat me
I would like to shame you
I would like to blame you
Just because of my love to you
A (our?) love itself is just as innocent as roses in May
I know nothing can drive it away
Though love itself is just as brief as a candle in the wind
That is greedy, just like sin
Alone, but sane
I am a love suicide
Cause love itself is just as brief as a candle in the wind
It is pure white, just like sin
Alone, but sane
I am a love suicide
Cause love itself is just an innocent as roses in May
It is pure white, just like sin
———————————————————————
Speaking of A Love Suicide, does anyone know the name of the woman singing it?
Anyway, I don’t think Wendy would’ve hung herself. It would’ve been mentioned in the newspaper article about the massacre. I don’t remember exactly what it said, but I think it would’ve been mentioned if one death was vastly different from the others. Then again they didn’t mention that Jennifer was the only survivor…
As you say, Cherrona… the newspaper article that we get to see didn’t even mention that Jennifer was the only survivor.
PokerNemesis wrote:
I did have another reason for not thinking she hung herself, such as how could a child her age know how to tie a noose. But then I realized she could use anything long and sturdy enough, and it wouldn’t break because she was only a child (I doubt she would’ve weighed much too considering she was always ill).
Oops, sorry, the above Anonymous post was me. lol Air-head moment.
Took me a while to notice too. 
See, I never took it as Gregory killing Wendy. Its mostly because he pulls her in then comes almost immediately out and no sound is heard. What I always took it as was him pulling her inside so she wouldnt have to see the death of her friend [or for arguments sake, so she wouldnt have to see him "collecting peas" (killing in general)]. The time -may- have been distorted a bit, but I think any longer and it wouldve given Jennifer time to react to him taking Wendy in attempt to try and save her….or flee. But as mentioned before, I really dont think it takes place at all. Why after so long of taking care of Jennifer would he want to hurt her? If anything, the battle is part of her dream so that she can somehow feel she helped avenge the other orphans instead of doing nothing [which is probably what happened]. Now its been a while since Ive played, and Ive never noticed the shadow, but I remember the article saying that Greg killed the orphans before than killing himself, so perhaps its him whose hanging? Assuming that again, the battle never happened and Jennifer never gave him back the gun she took
I agree that she may have hung herself.
But what I can’t help but wonder is what would bring a child to actualy *think* of suicide.
I mean, we always hear about it in teenagers and adults, but in children, it’s very rare. So maybe, if Wendy *did* decide to hang herself, I can think of two questions: Where would Wendy have gotten the idea of suicide? Had she seen it before? (Had she DONE it before, to someone else?? This could bring a clue to what could have happened to the adults)
And could it have something to do with the original Joshua?
Maru wrote:
~
The newspaper article says:
So I think we can rule out that it is Gregory hanging.
One scenario I’ve imagined (before I thought of Wendy committing suicide) is that Wendy had tried to stop Gregory by threatening him with the pistol, but that he killed her and took the pistol at that time.
I’m not sure how to explain Gregory getting the pistol if Wendy hangs herself. I’ll have to think about it.
The reason I feel I can make out some of the song that others cannot, is because I speak French. The inability to clearly enunciate many of the final constants and the accent are very foreign and seem to be consistent of those difficulties the native French speakers I talk with have.
Anyways, this website http://student-health-issues.suite101.com/article.cfm/suicide_among_young_children confirms that young children today at least do sometimes commit suicide. It seems like a horrible idea to entertain, but there are children that want to die and do kill themselves. We cannot rule out Wendy committing suicide as a possibility because we don’t want to face facts. Once the idea is brought up, it is a valid point. Even the idea of hanging herself could be true. After all, young children often take the most easily accessible way out, such as with a gun or by strangling. If Wendy knew anything about hanging, had even killed the adults by that method, she would be able to tie a rope in a knot and jump regardless of whether it was a hangman’s noose or not.
The question however is not could Wendy kill herself, but would she? Was she that unhappy? And also, when did she kill herself if she did? If you told me she hung herself right after Jennifer arrived at the orphanage, I would say you’re crazy. But, if you said she did it after walking outside and seeing all the other orphans and Gregory dead, maybe even thinking Jennifer had also been killed, and realizing that her plan had not only failed but gone horribly wrong, I would have to consider it possible. That kind of trauma could certainly drive anyone to suicidal thoughts.
Also, has anyone considered that Gregory took the pistol from Wendy? After all, if she happened to be holding it when Gregory walked in, he may have freaked out. We never did confirm how Joshua died. He could have shot himself by accident with Gregory’s loaded pistol. If he still thought Wendy was Joshua at the time, he may have just grabbed the gun and kept it. Or she may have considered using the gun, but then hung herself and left the gun under her body. Gregory could have then picked it up himself, or Jennifer could have. Even if the battle was not real, she may have actually given him the gun. If he thought she was Joshua again or simply followed her to Wendy’s body, he could have gotten the gun there or received it from Jennifer outside like we saw in the cutscene. Or, back to the walked-in-on-Wendy scenario, that still could have happened only with Jennifer holding the gun instead. Maybe she knew where the gun was, ran and got it intending to shoot Gregory, but he easily overpowered her and took the gun (as in previous scenario). Lots of possibilities for this one.
I’m pretty certain she either lead Gregory into the house or he followed her (her not necessarily wanting him to come, but him wanting to be with Joshua). Depending on wether or not you believe Jennifer actually became “princess” after her fight with Wendy would alter which you may believe. A lot rides on the idea that she did, somehow, preceed Gregory into the orphanage during the massacre in Jen’s dream. The storybook, the way things actually go… Maybe she told Gregory the “peas” were hurting Joshua and his father needed to come rescue him… who knows…
But another thing that interests me is that Jennifer doesn’t see the bodies of the kids. She hears screaming, but no bodies. However we do see bodies of Hoffman and Martha. So it made me wonder if she ever saw the Orphans dead. She gets to the mainhallway, hears them screaming and runs to hide, maybe.
Most of this is speculation… but the way most people have begun thinking is that the game doesn’t portray any of the major events accurately. I’d like to think that the aura of the real events are still in there, hence the horror and deepness of the feelings associated with the flashbacks. The definition of reality is the perception of events and the world around oneself. You can’t see anyone else’s point of view really because you haven’t lived in their shoes. Time distorts memory and fades it. Childhood makes your veiws fuzzy because you do not understand everything going on. I don’t see why most of the major events coudln’t have been mostly accurate as seen by young Jennifer.
I read a theory somewhere not too long ago that said something like maybe Jen got the gun from where Wendy hid it and was going to use it to shoot Gregory but was scared and fainted so he took it and shot himself instead… Speculation is fine and fun… but I think the game is at least accurate-by-right-of-margin-of-error. Which is a nice way to say a child probably wouldn’t understand EVERYTHING that went on in the orphanage to begin with and in the dream we see how her mind makes up for the uncertainty.
Even in ancient history people would explain things they didn’t understand with myths. Most children are the same.
Now i was just thinking if he went crazy because of seeing his song being hanged (or dead)
It probably thought of, but what if the girls hanged Wendy? They always look for a low girl, Since Jeniffer stood up to wendy, what was stopping them from making wending the lower person? Maybe they did it? (But then again, i would HIGHLY doubt it, so ignore all of this)
Its interesting… I really wonder what could it be
Mm, I don’t think Wendy would actually hang herself, I just can’t picture it…
….Then again, I’m also the genius who thinks Wendy grown up and is ALIVE somewhere. o_O; …Yeah….
I think the words “A Love Suicide” could have a different meaning. There’s “a suicide out of love (or heartbreak)”, but I also think it could be a sabotaging of one’s love. Because of the way she reacted to Brown, Wendy killed her relationship, her love with Jennifer. Just like Passerby mentions…
Despite the fact that I share my father’s views about an “evil” Wendy I differ from his view in that rather than evil she may have been psychologically “broken”.
Perhaps she hanged herself out of guilt over what had happened to the orphans and Gregory. She was already unhinged about falling from power and the deaths prevented her from ever regaining that power. But more to the point she was still a little girl who had lost friends in a horrific manner and basically right in front of her.
We don’t know where Wendy hid the gun but it’s remotely possible that it was found by Gregory (or one of the other orphans) and ended up playing a part in the tragedy. Wendy hid when the chaos started and then came out to find an massacre had taken place. I believe that this would have driven her over the edge with grief and guilt and she hanged herself in repentence.
About Joshua’s death.. In Greg’s diary, did it not say that Joshua was suffering from a fever?
Every Monday Greg would get a “pea”, bury it by Saturday and it would be gone by Sunday… Did this really happen? Or did a killing spree occur?
In the diary it also mentioned that Greg fed Joshua with hot pea soup..
Was that figuratively or literally?.. If it was figuratively then, Greg fed Joshua some of the remains of the orphans?
Welcome retaelation10a!
retaelation10a wrote:
See my blog-posts:
Was Gregory a Cannibal?
Peas That Kick and Scream
~
Although we usually associate suicide with depression, etc. I’d like to call another disorder to your attention that may support the idea that it is Wendy hanging: Borderline Personality Disorder. Wiki has an article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_Personality_Disorder
Some theorise that people with BPD cannot get along without a high level of emotional arousal (or physical–and no, I don’t necessarily mean it in a sexual way, bug off). They may behave in extreme ways that pull people into participating in the dramatic fantasies they have. This includes suicidal ideation (thinking about, planning, and even unsuccessfully attempting, suicide) or actually killing themselves. The Wiki article gives us the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for BPD, and it’s starting to sound familiar…
Although we never seem to really know exactly how mental disorders arise (current fashion seems to be to throw up your hands, and say, ‘It’s any and all of the above!’), many seem to be associated with traumatic experiences. It disappoints me that we don’t seem to find out much about the past of the other orphans, although I suppose they can only cram so much information into one game. At any rate, it seems unlikely to me that the children have reached the orphanage because happy fairies and kittens took them away on a candy cloud of joy. I think it’s possible they could have experienced trauma, and (shockingly!) not be coping with it very well. It was only a stray thought that led me to BPD, but the more I look at the description, the more it sounds like Wendy’s behaviour.
And as far as children not experiencing mental illness, it’s hard to say. My mother is very short-sighted, such that without her glasses, anyone even a little far away is essentially a colourful person-shaped blob. Although she has seen this poorly all her life, she was at least ten before she told anyone, and got glasses. Why? Because it never occurred to her that other people could see better than her. Part of what happens as we grow up (at least in theory) is we develop the capacity to understand that others experience the world differently than we do. Children may not realise that their perception of the world is different from everyone else’s, so they can’t see that it’s unusual and talk to someone about it like an adult could. Even if a child is talking to a counselor or somesuch, what someone else might identify as ’symptoms’ and worth mention, the child may not consider important information for the counselor. Additionally, part of the problem comes because diagnosis often seems to go hand in hand with medication in the western world, and many psychologists are reluctant to recommend prescribing psychoactive drugs to people whose brains are still developing.
(Following another slightly OT thought, but everyone seems to assume Wendy is straight-up sick. I don’t know much about medicine, but could her coughing be caused by injury to the lungs? Certainly, it could be caused by a single exposure to certain harmful substances. Probably not important to anything, but…)
[/end essay]
I think this might be a bit off-topic (and I think it may also have been said before D: )…
The reference to Wendy’s illness could be another misdirection. I think I remember reading somewhere that someone who is depressed may seclude themselves from the outside world, closeting themselves in their rooms and hardly interacting with anybody. Maybe Wendy told the others that she was sick so they would leave her alone. Her staying in the sick room would have added to this tale. Maybe she pretended to be sick, or even made herself sick through bad habits, such as not eating? And she would have appeared to be ill in Jennifer’s memory because that was how Wendy had acted. I don’t think someone who was as frequently sick as Wendy seemed to be would be out traipsing through the woods at night, either, which she seemed to have done, if the diary entries are anything to go by.
say,about the song “a love suicide”? which is,the theme song of the ror?
where can i download this song?
Go to Galbadia Hotel.
tnx.. ^^
about the lyrics of a love suicide?
is it really debt?
I want to be dead
– When I am, “I’m in debt”
I can be so mean
You can beat me
I would like to shame you
I would like to blame you
Just because of my love to you
i search it on the youtube..
in there…the debt?is bed?
well..obviously i’m confuse…
Okay, so, I’ve been lurking around this website for quiet a while now. And I doubt my post will be as all you geniouses’ posts D: However, I came up with something that I don’t really think has been brought up on the site (If it has, then forgive me :<)
Anyways, I guess this is kinda off topic, however, I think this is something important that could relate to Wendy's death.
So, we all know Wendy was the one that brough Gregory to the orphanage. However, we've all speculated that Wendy dressed up as Joshua in order to get Gregory to obey her. And when he found out Wendy wasn't really his son, he killed her as well. But, there was one thing pointing out that Wendy probably didn't dress up as Joshua at all, she just did it in Jennifer's memories.
In Marthas letter she says:
"Yesterday, I saw them together again… Mr. Wilson and Wendy,
A child at our orphanage. I am very concerned for her safety.
The two of them have been acting quite strangely. Oh, it’s terribly
odd. By strangely, I mean… Mr. Wilson walking on all fours and
nodding… and Wendy appears to be scolding him…"
The fact that Martha recognized Wendy must have meant that she was in fact NOT dressed up as Joshua during that time. That means that Gregory obeyed her, even though she wasn't looking like his son at all. And this also makes Wendy's death in Rule of Role something of a 'fake' so to say.
Since, in the game, after she reveales to Jennifer that it is her, she is pulled into the mansion by Gregory and is then presumed to be killed by him. I don't think that is the reason OR how Wendy was killed. Since Gregory must've known very well that it was Wendy, even before the massacre. We've never been 100% sure about Wendy's death, however, I think this might be a clue to speculate about other death reasons for Wendy.
Sorry for my bad english, I hope it's understandable D:
Welcome, Super Paper!
You make a good point about Wendy apparently not needing to dress as Joshua in order to train Gregory.
Considering that we know that Wendy took Gregory’s gun when she helped Jennifer escape from Gregory’s basement room, and that Gregory somehow later came into possession of that gun—by which he apparently committed suicide (if we can trust the newspaper to have gotten THAT part right)—we can ask ourselves: how did Gregory get the gun back that he shot himself with? If (as I have speculated in my blog-posts analyzing the “Stray Dog and the Lying Princess” chapter) Jennifer has shown us falsehoods in that chapter and may have actually hidden herself throughout the actual, historical massacre, we need not stick to the odd idea that Jennifer gave the gun to Gregory. The most straightforward explanation, it seems to me, would be that Gregory got the gun from Wendy. Could it be that Wendy actually threatened Gregory with the gun when she saw that he was out of her control and a danger to the orphans? If so, it might be that Gregory killed Wendy in response to her actions against him with the gun, and recovered the gun in that way.