The hidden theme of the “Mermaid Princess” chapter of Rule of Rose seems to be: sexual goings-on at the orphanage.
We never see anything explicit, but much is indirectly implied.
Up until the last cut-scene of the chapter, the focus seems to be on Clara. For evidence that Hoffman had some sort of sexual relationship with Clara, see my posts:
“The Frightened Princess Mystery”
“The Bloody Medical Tools Mystery (Part 1)”
“Clara Naked in Hoffman’s Bed”
In the last cut-scene of the “Mermaid Princess” chapter, the focus shifts to a scene which may be a censored-by-Jennifer’s-mind vision of Hoffman molesting Diana. For the evidence that this scene is a scene of molestation, see my post:
“What is Hoffman Saying as He Paws Diana?”
For a speculation about how Jennifer originally came to view this scene, see my post:
“As Hoffman Pawed Diana, Where Was Jennifer Really?”
But why do the authors of the game choose to end that final cut-scene with Diana coming at Jennifer to punish her, and the two of them falling onto Hoffman’s bed together? If this climactic moment of the scene is in keeping with the theme of the chapter, is there an implication that Diana molested Jennifer?
This notion may seem odd considering how much larger Jennifer is, in this dream-scene, compared to Diana. But Jennifer wouldn’t have been as old as she appears, or as large as she appears, when the incident would have actually occurred. In Jennifer’s true past (1930), Diana would have been older and larger than Jennifer.
View the YouTube of the scene here: Diana and Jennifer fall onto Hoffman’s bed.
Did Diana molest Jennifer after the cut-scene’s end?
In the “Once Upon A Time” chapter, Jennifer only says of that incident: “that rag Diana put to my face smelled just awful”. But did Diana only put the rag to Jennifer’s face?
It is my opinion about the “Once Upon A Time” chapter that Jennifer consistently avoids speaking of the darker events that occurred at the orphanage. So I think that she could have been molested but doesn’t want to speak of it.
In the cut-scene, Diana says to Jennifer, while coming at her with the stinky rag, “Oh, my! I see a stain, I’ve got to clean it up or Mr. Hoffman will be angry with me.” But one doesn’t speak of a stain on someone’s face. One speaks of a stain on someone’s clothes. Did Diana rub the stinky cloth over Jennifer’s body (rubbing on top of Jennifer’s clothes) as Hoffman may have just done (with his hands) to Diana (assuming that Jennifer self-censored her dream)?
It is often said that molestors were often themselves molested prior to taking up the practice themselves. Did Diana mimic, on Jennifer, Hoffman’s behavior to her?
It need not be assumed that Diana molested Jennifer for Diana’s sexual pleasure. Jennifer had just witnessed proud Diana being reduced to tears by Hoffman. Jennifer had also witnessed Diana’s humiliation at Hoffman’s hands (literally). It is understandable that “Duchess” Diana would want to re-establish her dominance over Jennifer. Physically dominating Jennifer on the bed, and humiliating Jennifer, would probably be Diana’s main intent.
How far did Diana go? Did she go so far as to put the rag under Jennifer’s clothes? Did she do other things? We have no evidence about this.
We don’t know if Diana had a sexual appetite. She is probably the only one of the Aristocrats that had reached puberty by this time. There is a scene in a pre-game video that shows Diana sucking on Meg’s finger. Was this another behavior that Diana learned from Hoffman? Does this indicate something about how far Hoffman may have made Diana go with him (fellatio)? Or was Diana’s sucking of Meg’s finger more innocent than that? Meg had, after all, just punctured her finger on a rose thorn.
It is interesting to remember that Meg and Eleanor were spying, from the other side of the aquarium, on Diana’s and Jennifer’s activities on the bed. Meg has a crush on Diana. So I wonder how what Meg saw affected Meg’s opinion of Jennifer?
Tags: Clara, Diana, Eleanor, Hoffman, Meg
Entries (RSS)
i hardley think that sexual asault was Dianas intention i think she just shoved a dirty rag in jennifers face, as far as the finger sucking thing goes i think that this was purely innocent we have to remember that the game is not completely about molestation and sexuality evil things and monsters, there is also a innocent aspect to the game.
josh wrote:
I don’t see any innocent aspect to “The Mermaid Princess” chapter. The theme of that chapter is quite dark.
As for the rest of the game, well… the narrator says early on:
While I don’t agree with josh (though I don’t particularly sway to ether belief on the Diana/Jennifer molestation), the creators did make it quite clear in their interview that part of the game was seeing a childs world through adults eyes. The idea that what seems perverse and sexual to us (sucking Megs finger when she pricks it) may not at all be anything but nursing a wound to a child. The problem with them saying that is dilemma’s like this; if it was mostly more innocent and only looks so terrible through an adults eyes, then was the game insinuating Hoffman molested Diana, or was he simply petting her affectionately while she wept to get out of trouble?
I think he was molesting her, or at least getting too close for her comfort. Whether Diana moved on to Jennifer, I’m not sure. It’s kind of a cop-out to say, but I can’t say she did and I can’t say she didn’t.
If she did molest Jennifer, or at the least undress her (whatever method she used!), could it be a show of power and dominance? Jennifer was involved in the airship crash, which basically became a flying fireball. There is no way she could have made it without some scars, such as on her arms which are constantly covered in long sleeves.
Maybe I’m just reaching and going off topic? The scars would make it all the more humiliating, but I guess they have nothing to do with whether Diana molested her or not.
nakedfish wrote:
I don’t think that is a cop-out. I can’t really say for sure whether Diana did or didn’t molest Jennifer either. That’s why I only pose it as a question.
And I don’t think that the question is ever likely to be able to be answered with absolute certainty.
I just think that there is possibly an implication in the scene that should be considered in any complete account of the story.
they also made it quiet clear that the game also shows some of the innocence of child hood but i do agree that there is’nt much innocence in the mermaid princcess chapter
I think she could have. In fact, I think she probably did. Because I’m completely convinced about the theory of Hoffman molestating Clara and Diana (I don’t know why but it looks like CLEAR to me, since the first time I saw the scenes). Like PN said, Diana’s dignity have been severely wounded in front of ‘filthy Jennifer’, so Diana, the proud, powerful, strong-willed Diana must prove herself superior. How does Hoffman inflicts his authority over Diana? Molesting her. How will Diana inflict HER authority over Jennifer? Just guess…
Another point here. Diana puts a smelly rag in Jennifer’s face. So what? Honestly, shoving a smelly rag in front of someone’s face doesn’t sound very Diana to me. We’re talking about Diana who likes to watch people with dead rats eaten by worms being rubbed on their faces. Diana who puts people into coffins. Diana who puts people into bags with spiders and other interesting fauna. Seriously. Waving a smelly piece of clothe in front of someone sounds (ironically) childish compared with the rest of punishments she likes to apply. The rag is just a ‘playful’ excuse to begin the ‘real punishment’.
And come one. They fall in that bed, that has sexual molestation connotations because of Hoffman. And in that chapter, full of dark sexual symbolism. Are there coincidences in this game? Not many of them, you have to concede it.
About Diana sucking Meg’s finger, there I have my own point of view. Meg is holding a rose. Diana’s hands are around Meg’s. She squeeze them against the rose and then Meg’s finger is punctured by a thorn. Diana does it on purpose. And Meg knows it. But then Diana takes Meg’s finger in her mouth, which is a very sexual gesture, and Meg is feeling that. So she won’t blame Diana, because, come on, is her beloved Diana, could have been an accident, and she’s taking care of her finger like THAT, and smiling and all… Then again, Diana powerplays. I can hurt you, but you won’t mind it, you will even be grateful, if I do something insignificantly pretty after hurting you. That’s the way I see it. Diana is showing herself how far she can go at hurting Meg. She likes to prove herself that she has control over as many persons as possible, and she enjoys it.
I’ve given my opinion on this matter before, so do hold on for a bit while I remember it…
aya valentine wrote:
—I’ve given my opinion on this matter before, so do hold on for a bit while I remember it…—
I long ago started a thread of the same name (“Did Diana Molest Jennifer?) on the Gamespot/GameFAQs forum (the thread is no longer there). There was a response in that thread from aya valentine that influenced my speculations in the above blog-post about the possible extent of Diana’s use of the rag on Jennifer.
FrozenEleanor wrote:
—About Diana sucking Meg’s finger, there I have my own point of view. Meg is holding a rose. Diana’s hands are around Meg’s. She squeeze them against the rose and then Meg’s finger is punctured by a thorn. Diana does it on purpose.—
I just re-watched that scene, and I think that you are definitely right about Diana doing this on purpose. There is a sudden intensity to Diana’s squeeze that indicates that her intent was to puncture Meg’s finger with the thorn.
I like your interpretation of Diana’s mind-game with Meg, and what this tells us about Diana’s psychology.
Yeah, she wanted to cause her pain. You can tell. But she has a very warped view of romance.
Well, diana’s warped view of romance is understandable, considering her relationship with Hoffman.
Diana says,
“Oh my… I see a stain… Mr. Hoffman will angry at me if I don’t clean it up.”
Then to me, it looked like she put the rag down Jennifer’s shirt (or at least on it) Before rubbing it on her face.
Seems like maybe Diana’s coming up with some sleezy pick up lines of her own… it appeared to me it was an excuse to push her down and rub the cloth over an area that Hoffman seemed to prefer with the excuse, “Mr. Hoffman will be angry.”
Might have been Eleanor’s reflection in the mirror though…
Did anyone else notice Meg was semi-smiling during that?
Mirror…dear god I’m loosing my mind…
Substitute Aquarium for Mirror, thank you. vv()()
Masq wrote:
—Might have been Eleanor’s reflection in the aquarium though…—
Both Eleanor and Meg have their faces reflected in the aquarium glass.
Masq wrote:
—Seems like maybe Diana’s coming up with some sleezy pick up lines of her own… —
Or maybe the “cleaning” euphemism is also borrowed from Hoffman. In “The Funeral” chapter, when Jennifer can spy through a keyhole (from the Sick Bay to the Sick Room) at Hoffman and Clara involved in what I think is a sexual scene that Jennifer has self-censored and modified in her memories, Hoffman says something related to cleaning—if I remember correctly—and Clara is shown (eventually) to be cleaning (but in reality I think she was doing something else).
I read where you posted that.
I was just saying, for those people who don’t believe Diana did do such a thing, it seems more plausible than not.
She even used “the ususal” lines to do it.
Poker-
Both Eleanor and Meg have their faces reflected in the aquarium glass.
Yes. Noted. Spotted. But did you see their facial expressions?
I think Meg was smirking because the molestation at hand was out of aggression rather than desire. So, for all intents and purposes, she was being victimized and tortured in a non-sexual way.
I have two theories:1. Diana sexually asualted jennifer, aware of the fact that meg was watching, doing this only to make meg hate jennifer even more.2. or did she mearly humiliate jennifer aware of meg watching so that meg could ridacule jennifer even more
i don’t think any of them have ever thought of sex being pleasurable thanks to Hoffman. its more of a torture and fear device for them now. so Meg seeing what Diana was doing to Jennifer would be a punishment for Jennifer not a pleasuring act on Diana’s part that would make Meg jealous.
BrownEyes says:
I dont’ think any of them have ever thought of sex being pleasurable…
I could take out the rest of that and it still be true.
Usually one would have to be older (at least past the age of hating the opposite gender) before considering it pleasurable… My idea was Meg’s glorification of Diana, and all her prowess, in that smirk, yet I can’t make out much expression from Eleanor at all…
You know, actually… Meg’s expression in the glass almost is the exact same one we see when she’s curtsying…
She is the COLD PRINCESS!!!! it shouldnt take too long to register!!!!
…Explain in detail whom you are referring to, please.
If you are referring to Eleanor, no dispute. She’s cold and never has any expression. ^^()() Don’t see what that had to do with the argument…
If you are referring to Meg… Uh… What!? (Wise-Looking Princess)
If you are referring to Diana… She’s the Strong Willed Princess…
Sorry, i was referring to a different comment
Oh, and yes i was talking about Eleanor
I think the cutscene suggest that the Strong-willed Princess did do something to Jennifer, or tried to, or wanted to, or Jennifer thought/feared she would. I can’t see why else they would be shown falling on Hoffman’s bed.
How hard would be Diana be rubbing that stain, to make Jen lose balance?
I have also thought that Jen, moving backwards to put distance between Diana and herself, could have found herself against the bed, then she had only that way to try to avoid being close to Diana… but it does not convince me.
Besides, the way the Strong willed Princess says “Oh my, I see a stain…” (and she is the only one who sees it!) sounds like fake, like she is acting, I think it is an excuse to torment Jen.
Whatever she does, I agree that she only wants to make Jen feel unconfortable, and to dominate her.
I can’t disagree that Hoffman’s bed has sexual connotations in this chapter, but Diana “assaulting” Jen until they both fall on the bed might also mean that Jen feels uneasy when close to Diana, Diana knows it and takes advantage of it, just to tease her (I mean, it could be just about being close, without doing anything else).
On second thought, who would ever feel comfortable being close to Diana, except for Meg, Ealeanor and, of course, Hoffman?
I am sorry if this is childish. I am sorry about my English.
Welcome, forgotten princess!
Thanks for your comment.
Thank you! I love this site, but took a lot of time to decide to write because I am a terrible player and did not know/notice many of the things people refer to in the discussions and all the comments are so interesting! I hope that soon I will think something worth writing!
I’m not sure Diana did molest Jennifer as shown in this scene… But I do know that the “I see a stain” and her coming at Jennifer with a rag is another way to say “Jennifer is filthy.” Diana was just punished for something she didn’t do. Her pride is injured. Jennifer is an easy target.
Diana uses every opportunity to proclaim herself above Jennifer; from forcing Jennifer to kneel so Diana is higher than her to standing on a chair so Jennifer has to look up to her. She is dominant. Pushing her to the bed would be another way of proving she was stronger. But the speculation that Diana molested her or… what was it? Put the rag somewhere and then to Jennifer’s face… ? I think that’s assuming quite a bit. First of all, it’s not unheard of for fishtanks to be stinky. We had one similar to Hoffman’s with guppies in it and the water DID stink. It was clean… but it still smelled. Second, after what Diana just went through (assuming Hoffman DID molest her; whichever side of the fence you ride on) I can imagine she’s angry… but none of the other punishments Jennifer goes through have anything to do with being molested or sexually abused. Since Diana gets to help with the punishments and probably has some say in what they are, you’d think that if she was a sexual predator that they’d be more degrading. Obviously if, as PN suspects, they got angry at Hoffman for doing to the girls what he supposedly did, then the other orphans would look down on similar behavior. Would Diana chance the scorn of the other orphans and the possible loss of power? I doubt it.
Yes she’s angry… she’s been shown to be creative in her own ways of violence. But I don’t think she molested Jennifer. Especially not with Meg and Eleanor sitting there smirking…
I am completely convinced now!
First because Eleanor and Meg are there! You are right Masq, they would not be sitting there smirking!
I also think that there is nothing more than a stinky rag to the stinky rag.
Come to think of it, when I was a child I had this friend, she would sometimes push me on the couch/floor/my own toys and keep me down, although I had made it perfectly clear that I hated it. It must have looked like the cutscene, I guess, and it was a normal innocent fight between little girls, and yes it was the “I am stronger than you” sort of thing.
Yet, the fact that they fall on Hoffman’s bed still beats me! Oh well, maybe it was the only object in the room they could fall on without hurting themselves!
forgotten princess wrote:
The scene ends before the actual molestation would have occurred (if it did).
We have no reason to believe that Diana is aware that Meg and Eleanor are hidden behind the aquarium, and we have no evidence at all concerning how Meg and Eleanor reacted to what they saw after the point where the scene ends for us. Arguably, they might not have dared to reveal themselves and risk embarrassing Diana further… after all, an embarrassed Diana is an angry Diana. And they wouldn’t want Diana’s anger to switch from Jennifer to themselves.
Diana never seems to need a reason to be angry or to choose a specific target… When Jennifer brings her the first gift we see that her fury is dark and completely undeserved.
When she spies Jennifer with the Koi (which I agree with PN on the she was hiding maybe behind the door or something and when the door swings open, there she is…) she turns and blames her. Obviously Jennifer didn’t take the koi out of the fishtank to frame Diana and I think Diana actually knows this. I think if Diana was punishing Jennifer for “getting her in trouble,” then the punishment would’ve been a lot worse than a stinky rag. Meg would’ve willingly given her any of her “experiments” to use and she knows this. Also, Diana is manipulitive. She has no problem awaiting proper timing for revenge. (we see this in Sir Peter when she forces Jennifer to do to Amanda what Amanda promised she could) What this seems like is a, “I’m not weak! I’ll prove it!” temper tantrum. She’s so frustrated and upset that she lashes out.
What’s more… I doubt the orphans would’ve frowned so severely on the rape if Meg and Eleanor had witnessed Diana being the giver of it… especially if they were afraid of her. It’s just another form of punishment… which we never see them use again.
When Diana has time to calm down, we see her calculatingly take the steps to get back at the ones who did cause her pain. With Eleanor, we see kind of a “truce.” I slapped you, you slapped me… we’re even. But that balance isn’t acheived with Meg until later. Diana’s revenge is a quick and brutal laceration of the heart with the ironic same scapegoat. The way she put Jennifer in the middle of it kind of makes me think she knew that Jennifer didn’t have anything to do with it, but it’s her brand of poetic justice that Meg experiences the same kind of pain. That poetic justice seems to be her trademark when it comes to her dealings. That poetic justice doesn’t seem to be absolved when she is just venting her sudden frustrations at the fact that someone had witnessed her personal moment of weakness.
Let’s face it, Diana WOULD see letting Hoffman take advantage of her as a personal moment of weakness. She sees herself as strong and powerful and it would wound her ever important pride to know she wasn’t and she would be angry. But if she was going to Molest Jennifer… why the rag? And why Hoffman’s bedroom where he could easily catch her? She’s never been so foolhardy before. She’s always very careful to cover her tracks.
Even when enraged, she likes to keep an “in control” air about her…
The strong willed princess seems to me to completely lose control in this scene, and I can’t remember seeing that happen anywhere else (except for the massacre).
First she fails to protect the fish, then she gets into trouble, then Hoffman humiliates her, and then she cries (even in the case she fakes it to get out of trouble, it is still an act of submission)… and in the end she discovers filthy Jen has witnessed everything! (and I hope she never finds out that Meg and Eleanor saw everything, too).
Given how proud she is, it must have hurt really bad, and I think she wants to set things “right” at once, at least with Jen. And that she really does not care which way she “punishes” jen, if only she can do it immediately.
She is rush, much mor direct than usual and her “chastisement” for J is not as elaborate as we would expect it to be (“Oh, Me-eg… can you invent a new torture device, please?”) and it is not really Diana-like.
But then again, getting into trouble, letting herself be scolded (and, um, touched) by Hoffman and weeping are not really Diana-like things. She doesn’t even seem to be doing much n this chapter, if Meg and Ealeanor are the minds behind the mermaid-doll. Which makes me think “What is happening to Diana?” (and we already gave an answer to this question).
Masq wrote:
I don’t think the rat-stick was essentially about revenge.
My theory is:
I think that Jennifer and Amanda were two pledges undergoing humiliating and unpleasant hazing in order to be allowed to join the “upper classes” of the Aristocrat Club. That’s why Amanda knew that her turn was coming. I think that “lower classes” was just another way of saying pledges. I think that Jennifer and Amanda were, essentially, “rushing” a sorority.
If there was any revenge involved, I suppose that it might have manifested via a deliberate choice by Diana that Amanda must undergo the hazing with a dead maggoty rat, rather than a live one.
But the hazing of the rat-stick, I think, was just an expected ordeal to be overcome if one wanted admission to the upper classes of the Aristocrat club.
Just because it’s a “Sorority” doesn’t mean that Diana doesn’t have her own hidden agenda. Just as there are lower classes there is a higher one than Diana.
Just as just because Amanda is “friendly” and gives Jennifer Joshua doesn’t mean she doesn’t have her own secret plans of revenge. Just as because Wendy is the highly respected and obeyed princess doesn’t mean they all like that she is.
Diana has no problem being cruel even to those in the same position she’s in (or close to). Look at Eleanor. Eleanor hadn’t done anything to her.
“Are we too cruel?” Meg
“Heavens no!” Diana
When Eleanor put the shoe on the other foot, Diana went after the weaker link (in her eyes). And, in all of this, Jennifer is the one that pisses her off the most. Why? Jennifer didn’t do anything,just like Eleanor.
Could Diana have been angry about Eleanor achieving higher marks than her and fearing her loss of her “favorite” place in Hoffman’s call? It’s possible. Eleanor was the second favorite girl. There are lots of cases of bullies trying to convince smarter children to “dumb down” so they don’t look bad.
Could Diana have been angry about Jennifer achieving friendship status with Wendy and fearing her loss of her position as second in command tormented Jennifer to try to convince her to give up or fall in line? It’s possible.
It appears to me there are three important symbols in this “sorority”. The Rose. The Bear. The Crayon. Kind of like the Trinity. (and Stray Dog is Satan… XD) The Rose represents the princess. The Bear is the prince. And the Crayon is the aristocrats. Jennifer has already achieved a “status symbol” Diana doesn’t have. The Rose. And what’s more, she wears it openly so all the children can see. Right on her neck.
So, rightfully, the only way Diana stays above her is by holding the Red Crayon over her head. “You’re not one of us YET.” That IS kind of manipulative… and vengance has many names and faces… even “first strikes” are often tainted with vengance and malice.
But I’m not trying to convince you. ^_^- I just like arguing, as I’ve said.
This may be a little off-topic, if it is don’t worry, just don’t answer.
but I am way off topic now)
When I first bought the game it reminded me of my college/dorm (can’t find a word that matches the thing. NOT a sorority) because the college has this system where you arrive with the lowest rank and get a higher one year by year (highest in the year when you are supposed to graduate). It is only university spirit, but there are times when it looks a little like ror, with curtseys, and elder girls “ordering” stuff to the freshers.
Could the Rule of Rose ranking system be based on seniority? After all, Jen has just arrived to the orphanage and has the lowest grade, while Diana is old enough to have spent some years in the orphanage (and thus achieved a high ranking).
This would do even in the case Wendy is the first princess and the whole organiation is relatively new: the girls picked Wendy to be the princess and then placed themselves in that “ranking diagram” according to their seniority. Or else, they would all want to be Dutchess! I mean, Diana is the most high-handed, but what else entitles her to such an high ranking?
(If the Rule of Rose thing is not really new, it looks even better to me: it means that Diana has had to go through the whole cursus honorum, including the ranking of “beggar” with all that comes with it!
Then, the rat-stick thing could be an initiation ritual (it is one of the first things that happen to Jen… but it doesn’t work for Amanda).
Or at least, things like having to bring gifts and risking the rat-stick humiliation are related to the lowest ranks (a reason for Elenor and Meg leaving the mermaid doll on Hoffman’s bed instead of taking it to the gift box. they have high ranks and don’t need to bring gifts).
One last thing, if higher ranks are gained somehow, higher ranks can just feel entitled to treating lower ranks poorly. (but that doesn’t go for Diana, who seems to have a more elaborate scheme).
Amanda makes a mention in her Diary that she won’t let “the new girl” beat her. This makes me think that you have the opportunity to surpass those that came before you which would kind of throw out your seniority theory… At least that’s what I gather…
This seems plausible if you defend the sorority type situation. Unfortunately the pledge of Rule of Rose that Meg has in her notebook which they apparently all had to pledge to says, “I shall offer a monthly gift” in it somewhere. Also, you see Olivia, Diana, Eleanor AND Meg all looking for the gifts that pertain to something important to them, which makes me think that each person had something in particular they had to retrieve to keep/achieve their rank and prove their loyalty.
I kind of cling to the idea that the Rule of Rose Red Crayon Aristocrats and their Monarch(es) are more of a religious body than a sorority or club. The main difference being that in a religion normally sacrifices and rituals are more symbolic, like they seem to be here. I know this is a bit off topic but the singing the girls do at the Sir Peter offering reminds me a lot of something I heard about the Oracle of Delphi, a place where an oracle was supposed to reside that told the future and gave advice. Of course, you would have to make an offering before the oracle would help you. During sacrafices and consulting (a lot of this is guess and go because none of the rituals are well known today) there was singing. Singing is used as a form of worship as well in most churches and all Christian churches.
My thought was the offerings were specific because each person had to prove their loyalty or devoutness to the religion.
This is where we come to a confusing point… I’m not sure what you meant here…
However, as for rising in the Ranks, we see Jennifer go from lowly pain to Aristocrat. Then we see her go through the initiation to become the Prince. However after she goes through the trouble of the ritual for the Prince she becomes angry at Wendy and refuses and shatters the club by confronting the lies that it was based on.
Now I’m not sure but I think if I’m following Jennifer’s dream correctly… the Prince’s job was to protect and serve the Princess from Stray Dog (or something) and the Princess’s job was to appease Stray Dog with the proper sacrifice. How she decided what these were… I’m not sure…
Did Diana mimic, on Jennifer, Hoffman’s behavior to her?
———-
It makes sense to me, I’ve noticed a slight hint of Diana exhibiting similar behaviours in other circumstances.
In the butterfly offering scene, when she calls Amanda to her to begin the hazing with the rat on the stick, she paws Amanda’s hair in the same sort of circular motion Hoffman does to her in the scene where he pawed Diana. Also, in the scene where she stands on a chair in front of Jennifer, she paws her hair, though I can’t say for sure whether it is a circular motion. She also pets Meg’s hair in the scene just prior to the onion bag scene, but that looks to me to just be her feigning comfort.
To me, the first example would be the best of Diana possibly copying Hoffman’s behaviour (other than the possibility of molesting Jennifer) on another girl. Amanda is lower ranked than her, so the pawing can be seen as dominance establishment. I’m not sure if these scenes are before/after the scene in which we see Hoffman paw Diana, but if before, it would imply that Hoffman has made similar advances on Diana before the scene we see at the end of the mermaid chapter.
Well, my personal opinion is waayyy too messed up…. If Jennifer had stated, “that rag Diana put to my face smelled just awful”, what if Diana had actually used Jennifer to Ahem her? Because, as someone said previously, just putting a rag to her face just seems too low a punishment for Diana…
Welcome, WingsAddiction!
Thanks ^-^
I really don’t think that Diana molested Jennifer. Perhaps when she mentions a stain, she could be just making an excuse to rub the rag on Jennifer’s face. The bed would have been the only place for her to pin her and still be visible considering the camera, and perhaps just falling on the bed was some sort of way to tie in with the sexual themes of that particular chapter. Everything that happened in the orphanage, or that Jennifer saw, has clues or objects that symbolize what happened. Were Jennifer molested, even if she did repress the memory, there would have been more evidence to it happening. (Sorry if this seems choppy. There’s noise going on and it’s hard to concentrate.)
Well I’m not sure about Diana MOLESTING Jennifer, but maybe something close. My personal opinion is that Diana liked Jennifer (like a crush). After all Diana seems to spy on Jennifer alot. When Amanda confronted Jennifer on the top of the aircraft, Diana was watching, and throught the game you see small hints of Diana. At first I wasn’t sure if it was Diana keeping a motherly eye on Jennifer, but as I replayed the game several times I began to think Diana had deeper feelings. After all she’s (as far as I know) only aware of Jennifer knowing about what Hoffman does to her.
Welcome, Mer!
Welcome, Temperance!
There a so many different theories. Thank you SO much for putting up this website, if you haddent I would never had put together all the little clues and made the story make sense. I’m not sure weather or not Diana molested Jennifer, but yea, Diana was much more sexual than all the others.
People are saying that the whole finger-in-mouth thing with Meg was just innocent children, playing and being kind, but you have to remember Diana was alot older, and had reached puberty, so she knew full well what she was doing. Also in the opening scene, when Diana curtsy’s she hitches her skirt right up, so it instantly tells us she is the minx of the group.
Brilliant website.
Welcome, CharlyRose!
Hi,
May I chime in with my two cents?
Respectfully I think you all are trying to put too rigid a logic to human sexuality and also in my humble opinion- childhood innocence is fleeting and once it’s gone watch out.
But let me deal with the first part first- sexuality. If we assume that Clara and Diana were to some extent molested by Hoffman and we also assume that the other children knew about it in some detail, which lets face it they probably did, spying and information imparted from the girls themselves aside, children are excellent at picking up non-verbal clues, so if it happened they probably knew about it rather quickly.
So therefore it’s also reasonable to assume that not just Clara and Diana would have there views on sex, love and relationships (romantic and otherwise) twisted. It’s been stated before that Hoffman himself drew a direct link between love and rape. His favored girls, the ones he ‘loved’ were announced first over the PA system.
The children in the orphanage were taught early that love wasn’t a pleasant thing, and that being it love with someone to any degree meant hurting them, debasing them. Love wasn’t about respect and empathy, it was about power and control. If you wanted something from someone, taking it was only natural.
Molestation of pubescent girls also brings a whole other dynamic too the table- pubescent girls are molested (among other reasons of course) because they are developing into women. Hebepilia is the technical term I believe. Anyhow these girls often blame their development for the molestation. I was always curious if the constant ‘filthy, dirty girl’s’ didn’t have a less innocent meaning. Jennifer too my knowledge is never called grotty, or grimey or messy or any of the other words that mean a quite innocent dirty. I’ve also always wondered if the constant abuse wasn’t entirely fictional. It’s already been established that Jennifer edits her memories, so if she did grow up in an environment where a maturing body and a desire for sex and so on were taboo, is it possible she views herself as dirty? She is a woman after-all, at 19 most girls are well pass actual sexual maturation, (though we do keep growing until we’re around 25 apparently) is it possible the constant filthy dirty girl’s is from herself, for being a woman, for wanting a relationship and sex and children.
On two the second part though, before I run out of words, on the innocence of children- true to them sucking a finger can just be sucking a finger and a dirty girl can just be someone who hasn’t washed there face in a week. However once that initial innocence has been removed- once they’ve been shown or taught that sucking and such has sexual connotations or that fear can be used to control. They don’t have the other necessary emotional and mental skills to know that doing such isn’t appropriate, nice or fair or what have you.
Okay so now that I’ve gone on and on pointlessly and probably pissed a few people off, let me also say this website is fascinating and all the opinions here are so insightful.
Welcome, Zeil!
Good comment!
Now that I think about it, paedophilia is never really used in RoR… here in the UK, the legal age for having sex is 16, and I’d think it was the same back in the 1930’s. Therefore, Clara is 16 and, I’m not 100% sure, but I always imagined Diana being 16 as well. Plus there isn’t really any rape either: with Clara it’s more of an ‘unwilling submissiveness’, as in, she allows Mr. Hoffman ‘do things’ to her even if she doesn’t want to, and with Diana it was just heavy petting really. Innappropriate and sexual intimidation, yes, but paedophilia or rape… I’m not too sure.
Hmmm…..I’ve never thought of Diana as being as old as 16. I guessed she was at most a couple of years older than Meg, and I tend to think that Meg, Eleanor, Wendy, and Jennifer hadn’t reached puberty yet.
Well I wouldn’t say Diana is 16, probably closer to 13 or 14 at most because she’s the only one who’s reached puberty at the time, but I definitely agree with the comments stating that Diana was more sexual thatn the rest of the girls. It makes sense because she is the oldest and in one of the opening scenes where they’re all curtseying, she lifts her skirt alot higher than she should AND she also has this certain look in her eye. Don’t know if anyone caught that but you mihgt want to look it up on youtube. It’s hard to explain exactly what that look means but you’d understand what I mean if you took another look at it. And I also think it is a possibility that Diana could’ve molested Jennifer
@TheDarkPrincess:
That curtsey could simply be innocent enough but, as older people, we’re looking at it in a more suggestive way. It’s like the small sequence where Diana pushes Meg’s finger into a rose thorn and then sucks on the tip of it: that could be innocent in a child’s eyes, but from an adult perspective it’s far more than that. Which fits in with the entire theme of the game: the difference between an adult’s and child’s take and perspective of things.
The Cheerful Prince
yeah my argument kind of sounded one sided but I definitely agree with you, there is a difference if you look at it in two ways just like a lot of things people say everyone interprets it in a different way like the words and phrases with “double meanings”
I think it is noteworthy that the two scenes, (1) Diana’s curtsy, lifting the skirt too high, and (2) Diana’s sucking on Meg’s finger, are only found in the advertising. In other words, both scenes come from the E3 Convention video which eventually became the pre-game video. Neither scene occurs during actual game-play.
I think that everyone seeing those scenes was definitely supposed to get a non-innocent suggested-meaning from them, and that this non-innocent suggested-meaning was there with deliberate calculation—by those in charge of advertising—to generate interest (yes, a pervy interest) in the minds of people who may, because of that interest, become purchasers of the Rule of Rose game. So I think that we are intended to think that Diana’s lifting of her skirt is suspiciously too high, and that the look and smile she gives while doing so has some meaning that may be wickedly interesting.
But were these scenes fully consistent with the intent of the game-creators? Or just an advertising after-thought? I don’t know. It seems like Diana is proudly showing off the bandage. What is the bandage about, that she should do that? Is the answer something relating to the actual story? Or just a ploy of advertising? I wish I knew.
that was really good insight, I wish I knew as well
(that rag Diana put to my face smelled just awful) I think its safe to assume that it was Chloroform or something else to knock her out.What happened to jennifer after that we can only guess. I would like to believe that she desided to leave jennifer alone but doughtful.At the very least she wouldn’t of been awake for it.
Welcome, Beask!
In the video (see link in the blog-post above) one can see that Diana dips the rag in the aquarium water and then takes it directly to Jennifer’s face. No opportunity for chloroform, even if Diana somehow had access to it. And there is no need for it, as Diana is both larger and older than Jennifer at the time in Jennifer’s past that this incident would have actually occurred (unlike what we see), and Jennifer would also have likely been submissive due to Diana’s Aristocrat rank and young Jennifer’s desire to be admitted into the Aristocrat Club.
True but you have 2 remember the intire game is a dream based on her reality.In her real life at the orphanage diana could of notice her spying and desided to take care of it later on during the day which would give her plenty of oppurtunity.Plus just cuz your bigger doesnt mean the other person isnt gonna fight back and be a pain in the ass.And sence it is a dream theres really no timeline except in the journals\news paper clippings. I believe on another topic there was a discussion about how jennifer turned everyone on hoffman for what what he did to clara.Her actions would show somebody not that willing to be molested or any one else for that matter.Also thats not something Clara or Diana would want the others to know.Then again the lengths were led to believe she went through just to belong would deffinately lead to what you just typed.Any ways I love this game and your website there alot of stuff i didn’t connect my first playthrough so im deffinatly playing the game later.Also im sorry im not that great at spelling.
@Beask:
I don’t think it would be possible for Diana, an orphan at a rural orphanage in 1930’s Cardington, to get a hold of chloroform or any other sort of substance to force Jennifer to pass out that easily. In my personal opinion, I think Diana just rubbed the smelly rag all over Jennifer (it had just been in a filthy fish-tank) in order to shame and humiliate her for what she just saw (Diana being reduced to tears by Mr. Hoffman) and to shut her up. You’ll notice that Jennifer either faints or passes out numerous times throughout the game without the use of such a substance, and I think that this is just one of those instances (it usually always happens, in some way, shape or form, at the end of a chapter).
Ñ sei na verdade o que aconteceu, mas se Diana quisesse apenas colocar o tal pano em Janiffer teria feito alí mesmo ao invéz de empurrar Jannifer na cama e deitar junto…. aí tem algo a mais… com certeza Diana quis dominar Janiffer na cama, pensem, vejam a tradução de uma parte da música do começo do jogo:
QUANDO ESTOU NA CAMA EU POSO SER TÃO MALDOSA
VC Ñ PODE ME VENCER
…
se quiserem comprovar o que eu digo, vejam a tradução da música de entrada que se chama “amor suicida” ou “A love suicide”
When you see the trailer, you see Diana pulling up her dress
but she doesnt stop at all, but then you see they focus on her face… Does that means she pull up her dress showing more than just the legs?
And also you can see in the trailer many scenes that contains many of Jennifer’s punishments, and there is one part that you see someone’s hand with what it looks like a crayon or a lipstick drawing on Jennifer’s dress, it is the breast area where the crayon is being traced?
I always thought that that Diana was pretending to cry to get out of trouble… but now that I think about it, even fake tears can hurt somebody’s pride if the wrong person sees them. But the thought of Diana molesting Jennifer… While it does make sense by Diana’s personality and your reasoning in this post, it’s very disturbing. Pardon me while I bleach my brain.